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Division No. 2

CONTENTS

Ackner, L.
Blaker, L.
Bowness, L.
Brigstocke, B.
Brookeborough, V. [Teller]
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Caithness, E.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chadlington, L.
Cockfield, L.
Coe, L.
Cooke of Islandreagh, L. [Teller]
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Deedes, L.
Denham, L.
Dundee, E.
Flather, B.
Fowler, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Home, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Palmer, L.
Patten, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Prior, L.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Reay, L.
Rogan, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Vinson, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wolfson, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Amos, B. (Lord President)
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Billingham, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fearn, L.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Gavron, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Gregson, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooson, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jeger, B.
Jones, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lipsey, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Michie of Gallanach, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Newcastle, Bp.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Orme, L.
Parekh, L.
Patel, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Sandberg, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stallard, L.
Stern, B.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tordoff, L.
Triesman, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Winston, L.
Worcester, Bp.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

10 Feb 2004 : Column 1058

4.15 p.m.

Lord Glentoran moved Amendment No. 6:


    Leave out Clause 6.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I take issue with the Attorney-General and with Clause 6, which was Clause 7 on Report, and question whether it should not more properly be struck out of the Bill.

I remember saying on Report that I accepted the Attorney-General's arguments, but would take advice from my legal team. I am here because my legal team was not satisfied with the arguments put forward by the noble and learned Lord on Report.

I shall not go through the issues at length as we have discussed them both in Committee and on Report. Unfortunately, on neither occasion did the Attorney-General and I agree. On Report I said:


    "This is a new offence of influencing a prosecutor. It is neither necessary nor wise. The Government rightly realised that, for it to have legal certainty, an essential of any such criminal offence is that it must be done with the intention of perverting the course of justice. Any attempt to influence a prosecutor with such an intent is already a criminal offence at common law, and the proposed statutory offence adds nothing to it".—[Official Report, 3/2/04; col. 607.]

I beg to move.

Lord Tordoff: My Lords, it is not my intention to intervene in the substance of the discussion, but I have a procedural point to make.

It is strange that noble Lords are trying to remove a clause on Third Reading that stood part in Committee. I am sure that that is not what Third Reading is about. There may be occasions when that can happen, and this may be one of them. I do not know enough about the subject of the clause.

We must be careful about how we proceed at Third Reading. I have been saying for a long time privately—and possibly publicly—that there are far too many amendments at Third Reading. Noble Lords will see that the Companion is quite strict about that. I am sure that it has been accepted by the Clerks in the general way in which the House deals with such matters. I simply want to raise a caution. Clauses that stand part in Committee should not really be struck out at Third Reading unless there is some very significant change between those two stages.

Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, has made a very important point. I doubt that this afternoon is the moment to attempt to respond to

10 Feb 2004 : Column 1059

the significance of what he said, but I am sure that the fact that he said it—and that he in particular said it—needs to be considered further by those who consider the procedures of our House. If he will permit me, I shall make no further observation on it, other than that I have great sympathy with what he said.

We have debated the issue at some length. It is always a regret for any lawyer to find that other lawyers disagree with him. I explained fully in Committee and on Report my reasons why I think it proper and wise to keep the clause in the Bill. I said then, for example, that bringing the offence would require the consent of the director himself. Perhaps I should have added that there are circumstances in which the deputy director can act in his stead, but I imagine that that would be only if the director himself were away.

I do not think that I can add anything to what I have said before. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, dealt with the amendment very quickly and I adhere unrepentantly, I am afraid, to my views that the clause is good and proper and should be kept in the Bill. I hope that noble Lords will agree.

Lord Glentoran: My Lords, before responding to the noble and learned Lord, I should like to say to the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, that I will certainly take note of what he said. If I have tabled an amendment that I should not have tabled, I apologise unreservedly to the House and to those concerned, and I shall seek advice from the Clerks in future with more diligence.

I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, does not want us to get involved too heavily in speeches on whether the Bill do now pass. However, as it is a Northern Ireland Bill and there is always a lot of passion and argument on Northern Ireland Bills, I should like to thank those on the Government Front Bench who have so patiently dealt with all our criticisms. I also thank my noble and learned friends and noble friends who have supported us and, last but by no means least, the officials from the department, who have been very patient with me when I have badgered and bullied them in corridors, airport lounges and other places to get more information or to change something.

I thank the noble and learned Lord for what he said, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

An amendment (privilege) made.


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