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Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, for his comments. Like my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary I pay tribute to the valuable work done by the EU committees in both Houses. We value that work far too much to allow anything that we propose to trespass on it. However, as I have indicated to your Lordships, the nature of the new Standing Committee will, of course, be a matter for the relevant committees in both Houses to look at.
The noble Lord asked whether there would be a genuine Joint Committee. As I hope I have made clear, the Government would welcome a fully Joint Committee. However, that is a matter for Parliament. I understand that that would require some procedural changes. I hope that the Procedure Committee in your Lordships' House and the appropriate committee in another place can find a way to bring this about. It is very much to be desired, and I fully endorse the noble Lord's remarks about your Lordships' House, and Members of your Lordships' House, having an equal role.
The noble Lord went on to ask about the added value that such a new committee would bring, and he asked about the value of having a committee to discuss new White Papers without precluding a proper debate. The precise role of the committee is of course a matter for consultation and discussion, but the Government see great benefit in any new committee serving as a forum for the new White Papers on the Commission's future work programme and presidency prospects. The possibility of involving commissioners and MEPs would broaden the basis of that sort of discussion; there would be real added value from the different voices, in addition to the voices of your Lordships and Members in another place.
Finally, the noble Lord asked about the proposals going to the Modernisation Committee being simultaneously presented to this House. I agree with the spirit of the question. Without wishing to offend any of the usual channels in your Lordships' House, the proposals for a new committee are matters for the House to discuss. Again, however, as my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and I have both made clear, we want both Houses to be fully informed. We believe that the value of having both
Houses working as they did on the convention and the IGC shows the importance of both Houses having a say on how the matter is to be taken forward.
Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, would my noble friend agree that the devil may well be in the detail? In this afternoon's Statement, which I broadly welcome as a very constructive approach, we do not have any knowledge at all of the precise proposals being made to the modernisation committee. I emphasise what the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, said—that in those circumstances, this House, and in particular the noble Lord and his committee, should be involved. I can use the words of the Statement to speak of the degree to which they ought to be involved. In another context, the Statement refers to,
- "an opportunity to raise concerns and influence policy before it is set in stone".
There is an ever-growing democratic deficit. The answer to that is in our hands, as it is the job of national parliaments, is it not, to take their own powers to control their own governments? In the sense that in the broader areas of forward-looking policy this Statement gives us the opportunity to do that, then I welcome it. However, would my noble friend agree that that should not be confused with the existing scrutiny role undertaken in such different ways between this House and another place? Does she agree that the role that is foreseen is very proactive, and that it is additional and complementary to, rather than an alternative to, the scrutiny that is currently done?
On the role of Members of the European Parliament, much as I admire them, increasingly from afar, can my noble friend tell me what care is taken to avoid any role confusion? Just as it is our role and the role of the British Parliament to control the ministerial input to the Council of Ministers, is not the role of the European Parliament and its parliamentarians limited to control of the Commission and to the Commission's role? It has more than enough work on its plate at the moment to fulfil that role adequately and in totality.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend Lord Tomlinson, that the devil is in the detail. It nearly always is. On the question of the precise proposals to be put to the modernisation committee and to the Procedure Committee in your Lordships' House, I agree that these are matters about which your Lordships are free to give advice and to offer the Foreign Secretary some thoughts about how details might be addressed.
The noble Lord referred to what he described as the "democratic deficit", and urged noble Lords to take the opportunities afforded to them for engaging in these issues. I endorse everything that he said. The noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, has an enviable record of attendance at the IGC. He attended on every occasion on which he was meant to attend, although I am not sure that the same could be said for some of his honourable and right honourable friends in another place. My point is that it is important that
those of your Lordships who are really concerned about these matters take up the opportunities when they are available to engage in this sort of debate.On the question of scrutiny, nothing in the Government's proposals should be seen as an alternative to the opportunities for scrutiny that are currently available. As for MEPs and role confusion, as I understand it the Statement suggests that UK Members of the European Parliament might also attend such a meeting. It does not say that they should necessarily become members. The detail of how the process might be handled, if it were to find favour with both the relevant committees, would have to be thrashed out.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, may I press the Minister on a question put to her by my noble friend Lord Howell? Will there be any return of powers to national parliaments, as opposed to toothless scrutiny? To be more precise, will there be any change to the treaties, which allow the unelected bureaucracy—the Commission—a monopoly of proposing new laws, for instance? Will there be any change to the system whereby when our executive, the Government, have been outvoted or have agreed a new law in Brussels, the House of Commons must enact that law on pain of unlimited fines in the Luxembourg court? Powers ceded to Brussels cannot be returned to national parliaments. Will there be any change in that? Will the acquis communautaire be reversed in any way?
Finally, the Minister was bullish about the draft constitution but, even under that, national parliaments are given only a formal right to express an opinion on whether a proposed measure complies with the principles of subsidiarity. The new privilege does not go any wider than that—and, even then, if one-third of national parliaments do object, the Commission is obliged only to review the measure. After that, it may maintain, amend or withdraw its proposal as it pleases.
To return to my noble friend's question, is any real power being returned to national parliaments, or is this all just more window dressing?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, there is the power to influence. I do not know how many times the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, has challenged me and said that what we were doing was not good enough because we keep on presenting Parliament with a fait accompli. I am telling him that here is an opportunity, for him and for others, to put forward their point of view before issues are "set in stone"—to use the language in my right honourable friend's Statement.
The noble Lord is far too old a hand to ask me whether this means a treaty change; of course it does not. The noble Lord must give your Lordships credit for some common sense. A treaty can be changed only, as the noble Lord knows, by unanimous decision by those who signed up to it. Of course, that does not mean that Parliament loses its sovereign powers to take decisions that a sovereign power is entitled to take, but it does mean that there might be a quite heavy
price to pay in those circumstances. In and of itself, of course that does not mean any "return of powers", to use the noble Lord's language. He says, "Well then so what?" It does mean that he will have the opportunity, which he has said over and over again that he wanted, to get in on the ground floor and try to influence the way in which future treaties are drawn up.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords—
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, I believe that it is our turn.
Baroness Crawley: My Lords, perhaps we could hear from the Liberal Democrat Benches and then the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart.
Lord Tordoff: My Lords, the Minister will recognise that the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, is not seeking information to make this thing work, but flying a kite to try to get us out of the European Union, as he does every time.
I refer to a point that my noble friend Lord Maclennan made. Are we any nearer to getting to grips with what goes on in the Council? This is the Achilles heel of the whole situation at the moment. We know that in some countries Ministers are mandated before they go to Council meetings. I doubt whether that works quite as well as they sometimes pretend that it does, but are we any nearer to reaching a position where Parliament knows before Ministers go to Council meetings what is on the agenda and what positions they are going to take up—not necessarily the detailed positions but the general principles—so that Parliament can express itself either through its committees or through the House itself?
One of the problems in another place is that the amount of time that Members get to debate matters that have been referred to them by their excellent Select Committee—which does a rather different job from the one here—is very limited indeed. It refers matters to a Standing Committee or very, very occasionally has its reports debated on the Floor of the House. That seems to me another area where perhaps our colleagues in another place might lean on the authorities there.
I come back to the question of what will be the role of Members of this House in this new committee. We cannot any longer allow the crumbs that drop from the Commons table to be the only thing that we are allowed to taste. The idea that noble Lords are allowed to attend on sufferance seems to me to be unacceptable. I hope that the Government will use their influence with the authorities in another place to make sure that the committee really becomes a Joint Committee. I am sure that noble Lords feel quite strongly about that.
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