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Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I rise to support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard. There was a good deal of discussion in Grand Committee about the best way to ensure the validation of postal votes and how to ensure that there is no personation. We discussed several methods. Like the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, I believe that the best possible way is by witnessing postal ballots. Therefore, I support the amendment.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, this is one issue that we discussed in great detail in Grand Committee. While we were discussing these matters, we were told by the Minister—the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, and, on the second day, the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Temple Guiting—that we would be sent a draft policy paper or something of that kind. I understand that a 70-page document has been sent out, but I am afraid that I have not received it. I am not sure whether it is the draft pilot order—no, it is the policy paper. Hansard could provide many instances of when I was personally told that I would receive the information, but I have not. I should be grateful if I could have the information as quickly as possible, not least to dissuade me from tabling lots of amendments for Third Reading.
I strongly support the amendment moved by my noble friend. There is a real fear that widespread postal voting means the end of the secret ballot. That is the
fundamental point of principle behind the concern about and opposition to postal voting. The Electoral Commission and the Government have examined ways of addressing the problem. I remain to be convinced that they have found a satisfactory solution. However, some of the measures in the policy paper—which I look forward to reading—will, we are told, seek to address this vital fundamental problem. We could have all the postal voting in the world, but if the fundamental principle of the secret ballot goes out of the window, that is the end of democracy as we know it. This is a crucial issue. As my noble friend said, the Electoral Commission suggests that individual registration is, in the long run, the best way to tackle the problem, but that cannot be included in the pilots this year.I believe that it is wrong to do away with one of the safeguards that currently exist. There is no point in introducing new safeguards if, at the same time, we do away with the only one that ensures that the person filling in the ballot paper and sending it back is the person to whom it has been sent. That is the fundamental problem. Requiring a witness provides a safeguard. I have personal experience of looking into irregularities in a particular local election two years ago. It is possible for members of the public or representatives of the candidates to inspect the declaration of identity—as it is called at the moment—after the event. Inspecting declarations does not prove anything in a hard and fast way, but it gives one a very good idea of what has happened when people have gone out to rig an election. We found that several individuals had witnessed more than 100 postal votes each. That sets one on the trail of working out how that particular election may have been rigged—as there is no doubt that it was in Pendle two years ago. It is a crucial safeguard and a pointer to what happens.
Secondly, because witnesses use their own signatures, it is relatively easy to examine the signatures of the electors concerned and assess whether they have been forged by the person who witnessed the signature. Indeed, I have no doubt that that happened in Pendle two years ago. Therefore, this is almost the only safeguard that people have if they are examining allegations that a particular election has been rigged. Under the pilots, when the Government are looking for other safeguards to introduce to protect the secrecy of the postal vote, it would be wrong to remove the one safeguard that we have at the moment.
5.15 p.m.
Earl Russell: My Lords, I declare an interest as President of the Electoral Reform Society. It will not surprise the House to find that I am in entire agreement with my noble friend Lord Rennard, who is a member of the council of that society. However, I feel that I owe it to the House to report some misgivings from well informed people, which I do not share, but on which the Minister should have a chance to comment. They come from among others the campaign manager of Scope, and from my son, who is parliamentary officer of the Royal National Institute for the Blind. They are concerned about the witness requirement. They fear that it may
infringe the secrecy of the ballot, discourage disabled turnout and create alarm and despondency. They fear that the requirement for a legible signature may have an adverse effect on disabled people. It is true that blind people have difficulty in producing a legible signature on occasion, but I hope that the Minister will confirm that the signature is that of the witness and not the voter.This issue is one of the possibility of fraud. There is a real fear of fraud in the case of proxy voting. I know of several cases in which there has been a vehement suspicion of fraud in proxy votes, but it has not been proved beyond reasonable doubt—a point of some importance. Does the danger of fraud justify the need for a witness, and, if so, why? That answer would be worth having on the record before the Bill leaves this House.
Lord Filkin: My Lords, in rising to respond to these issues, I again put on record that, although we do not necessarily think that concerns about fraud are of the level signalled by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, in Grand Committee, there is regrettably some fraud in our electoral practices. Neither of those statements implies that the Government are quiescent or passive about the importance of investigating and appraising whether, through further use of postal ballots, fraud increases or can be removed or reduced to the minimum possible level. I want to make that absolutely clear before I respond specifically to these issues.
Although we may not agree about the mechanisms or the quantum we certainly do agree about the importance of ensuring that, if postal balloting is taken further, we find effective ways of resisting, rebutting, and deterring fraudulent practices. For good reasons that I am sure will be shared throughout the House, that will be an essential component of such ballots having credibility in the future and therefore having the confidence of all electors and political parties.
We discussed this specific issue in Grand Committee and I made clear our intention to mandate within the pilot order that a ballot paper must be validated with a security statement signed by the elector. We do not intend, as this amendment suggests we should, additionally to require electors to obtain the signature of a witness. I will try to explain why. We have taken our lead on this issue from the Electoral Commission. In its report, The Shape of Elections to Come, the commission identifies a number of reasons for utilising the security statement in place of the declaration of identity.
Those reasons are reiterated in a briefing the commission has produced specifically on the amendments under discussion today. They were; first, that the requirement to complete a declaration discourages some electors from voting as it could be difficult to find a witness. Secondly, the necessity of a witness could increase the risk of a breach of secrecy as the witness may see the elector's vote. Thirdly, the Electoral Commission said that involving another person in the voting process would create the potential for a breach of security, mitigating that as a safeguard against fraud. Fourthly, it said that there was a significant issue of a risk of disenfranchisement being increased. The commission was strongly concerned that paragraph (a) of the amendment would introduce a
feature that its previous evaluation of pilot schemes had indicated served little purpose in terms of fraud prevention and created real risks.The commission recommended to the Government in September 2003 that in future all postal ballots should not require a witnessed declaration, for the reasons that I have given. Instanced in that was evidence from opinion polling and other sources, which showed that some potential voters in all-postal pilot schemes had been deterred from voting because of the difficulty or inconvenience of finding a suitable witness. The commission also said that a witness statement offered no guarantee of security, as there was no register of signatures. Therefore, it was perfectly possible for witness signatures also to be forged.
I shall give a further example from the piloting experience that the commission reported on in 2003. It noted that in Trafford, only 414 ballot papers were rejected out of a total return of about 84,000. In the previous year, with a declaration of identity, 2,164 ballot papers had to be rejected. The commission pointed out that that equated to 2.5 per cent of the total turnout. In other words, there is a much higher rate of invalid ballot papers as a consequence of the requirement. If we were to extrapolate those figures across the four pilot regions and assume, optimistically perhaps, that there was a 50 per cent turnout at those elections, the consequence would be that 175,000 people could be disenfranchised because invalid papers had been submitted.
In essence, we are taking the Electoral Commission's view and advice on the matter. That does not mean that we do not believe there to be an issue about fraud, but on the advice of the commission and in our own opinion, we do not believe that the proposal suggested by the amendment is the way to deal with it.
As the noble Earl, Lord Russell, said, there is considerable concern that such a measure might discriminate against those with disabilities. Officials in the department met representatives from Scope and RNIB last week, and a strong view was expressed that a witness requirement only added another obstacle barring many disabled people from voting in secret and at their convenience. Scope feels so strongly about the issue that it has written to two noble Lords expressing its views, saying:
- "We are clear that requiring voters to have their ballot witnessed by another person not only increases the likelihood of people spoiling their ballot or returning them uncompleted but also puts many disabled and older voters, who are more likely to be more isolated or live alone, at a substantial disadvantage".
Furthermore, it has been suggested that voters must be sent acknowledgement. I understand why that is suggested, but both our and the Electoral Commission's view is that that should not be done because it would substantially increase cost and bureaucracy. More importantly, it is not an effective anti-fraud measure. It is also doubtful whether it would really work. We have taken steps to reduce the risk in
situations such as houses in multiple occupation. An individual who is willing to accept the potential consequence of fraudulently taking an elector's vote is likely to put in place contingencies to accept any acknowledgement. Electors can ask whether a vote has been received, and returning officers will be able to give them that information.
Without more ado or delaying the House further, I reiterate that we agree on the importance of using the pilots as ways in which to identify whether fraud is taking place and effective ways in which to resist, rebut and deter it. However, we do not believe that the amendment is a good way in which to do that. For those reasons, I hope that the noble Lord will be minded to withdraw it.
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