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Lord Norton of Louth: My Lords, I find merit in every amendment in the grouping.

I suspect that the Minister will argue that Amendment No. 34 subsumes the other amendments that are being discussed. I see merit in it and welcome its provisions. There is a distinction to be drawn between the government amendment and Amendments Nos. 25 and 35. As the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, was indicating, they impose a requirement on the Electoral Commission to be proactive. That was the point developed by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, in Committee when he moved an amendment to that effect. Today, he has brought forward an amendment that meets points that were raised in Committee, both by myself and by the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Temple Guiting.

The thrust of Amendment No. 35 is very important in requiring the commission to be proactive, and I welcome the changes that have been made to it. I support them. If the matter is left too much to discretion, there is a danger that not enough work will be undertaken to find out if there has been any fraud or any undermining the secrecy of the ballot. In the context of these pilots that is extraordinarily important.

Lord Filkin: My Lords, that is an important issue that we have referred to a number of times, and have come back to several times during our consideration in Grand Committee.

In Grand Committee I signalled that I was sympathetic to the view that as one moves from smaller-scale piloting to larger-scale—if there were the potential for all other tests to be met—then that issue is of considerable importance. I signalled my sympathy. It is not just a matter of looking at reports of malpractice, as that would, by definition, identify only what had been reported and would not identify malpractices that had taken place, but for whatever malign reason had not been reported because they were not known, or for any other reason.

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I said that it was important that the Electoral Commission should find an appropriate mechanism for identifying what was happening, as well as what was reported. The Bill does that. It provides that the Electoral Commission must assess the extent to which the pilots affected personation and other offences and malpractices. In order to fulfil its duties without us telling it how to go about its job, the commission will have to collect information from returning officers, local authorities and electors. It will have to talk to the police and the Crown Prosecution Service, without in any way impinging on the responsibilities of the police to investigate malpractice under the Act.

The issue of spot checks of ballot papers was raised. Such checks do not take place in traditional arrangements, for the important reason that the secrecy of the ballot must be maintained. It is right and proper that documents such as security statements may be inspected, but the ballot papers are sealed after an election and are inspected only on the order of a court, if the court has found that there is good reason to do so.

As we said in Committee, the Electoral Commission can attend the verification of ballot papers, the counting of votes and proceedings on opening of postal ballot papers. Such provisions will remain in the pilots. In addition, the commission will report on specific issues of fraud, if it identifies causes to do so. The Bill obliges it to assess the extent to which postal voting affects the incidence of personation or other electoral offences. That is exactly what is being requested.

The commission would not wish to be put in the position of looking at ballot papers after the close of the poll, and I do not think that local authorities would either. Currently, all such investigations are done under the supervision of the court. On a related issue, the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, asked in Grand Committee whether the time for which electoral materials were kept would be extended to match the extension of time for prosecutions under Clause 7. He was right to do so. I can confirm that that is the case and will be provided for in the pilot order.

Government Amendments Nos. 34 and 38 are a response to Amendment No. 35, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Rennard and Lord Goodhart, the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham. They seek to address some of the concerns expressed during our discussion of Amendment No. 7. As part of a wider assessment of whether pilots increase fraud or other offences, the amendments will ensure that the commission assesses whether electors feel that the pilot was secure from fraud and offered proper security. In that sense, we are looking at the perception of fraud. The amendments specifically allow the commission some discretion about how it proceeds. In 2003, MORI was commissioned. The government amendments will allow that to happen again and allow electors to be asked about their experiences and perceptions of all-postal voting in the pilots.

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We tabled Amendment No. 34 after reflecting on what was said in Committee. It has been suggested that the commission should do more than simply consider complaints, and I have signalled my sympathy for that view. However, we should leave details of how it will go about it to the commission. The other part of the amendment is a response to Amendment No. 7. We do not accept the case for Amendment No. 7, but the first part of Amendment No. 34 is on a related issue, and I hope that that will be recognised. The amendment is intended to ensure that the Electoral Commission reports on the number of ballot envelopes received after the close of poll.

Amendment No. 33, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, and the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, would require the commission to report on the extent to which the manner in which the elections were conducted undermined the secrecy of the ballot. As my noble friend Lord Evans of Temple Guiting said in Committee, the commission is already required by Clause 4(6)(c) to report on how the pilots affected the incidence of electoral offences or malpractices. That covers all electoral malpractices and offences. If there are breaches of secrecy even though no offence is committed or if there is no breach of secrecy but there is a perception that postal voting makes it more difficult to vote in privacy, it will be picked up by the opinion polling provided for by Amendments Nos. 34 and 38.

We think that we have struck the right balance by setting out a clear expectation that not only should the commission investigate reported malpractice or the perception of malpractice but it should also identify the reality of malpractice that might not have come to the surface. We would not want to go any further in telling the commission how to do its job.

The commission will set up a call centre to receive complaints and will refer to administrators any allegations of fraud. The CPS will provide channels for reporting matters of concern. The list of provisions and options open to administrators is included in the policy paper that was referred to earlier.

I hope that Amendments No. 25 will be withdrawn and the others not moved and that Amendments Nos. 34 and 38 will be supported.

Earl Attlee: My Lords, once again, I am grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart.

Amendment No. 34 meets nearly all our concerns. Certainly, it has its attractions, as outlined by the Minister. I repeat that I am attracted to Amendment No. 35, which would give legal authority to market research, but the Government have moved a long way towards meeting our concerns, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Filkin moved Amendment No. 26:

Page 3, line 19, leave out "orders made under sections 1 and 2" and insert "pilot order"

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The noble Lord said: My Lords, these amendments are consequential to the previous amendment that we debated. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Filkin moved Amendments Nos. 27 to 31:

Page 3, line 20, leave out from "which" to end of line 21 and insert "postal voting and provision made by the pilot order—"

Page 3, line 22, leave out "elections" and insert "election"

Page 3, line 23, leave out "elections" and insert "election"

Page 3, line 26, leave out "elections" and insert "election"

Page 3, line 28, leave out "elections" and insert "election"

On Question, amendments agreed to.

[Amendments Nos. 32 and 33 not moved.]

Lord Filkin moved Amendment No. 34:

Page 3, line 28, at end insert—

"( ) For the purposes of subsection (6)(a) the report must include a statement of the number of ballot papers which appear to the returning officer to have been delivered to him during the period of one week starting with the day after the date on which the poll closed.
( ) For the purposes of subsection (6)(c) the Commission must ascertain by such means as it thinks appropriate and report on the views of electors as to whether postal voting and provision made by the pilot order—
(a) provided sufficient safeguards against fraud;
(b) provided appropriate protection for the secrecy of the ballot."

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the amendment is consequential. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendments Nos. 35 and 36 not moved.]

Lord Filkin moved Amendments Nos. 37 and 38:

Page 4, line 2, leave out subsection (10).

Page 4, line 2, at end insert—

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