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Baroness Hanham: My Lords, our names are in support of the amendment. When it was first tabled I found it curious, because in my authority the executive
director of planning is just that. He is on the executive board of the authority and is in precisely the capacity that the noble Lord, Lord Best, has suggested should be the case in all other authorities. It never occurred to me that this might not be the situation across the country. It is abundantly clear that it is not.That is reprehensible. It must be proper and right that somebody who is not only properly qualified but also properly experienced in planning matters should be at the head of that department. If this requires a statutory framework for it to be taken for granted that that is the case in all local planning authorities, I support that. I am delighted to support the amendment.
Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I take the points that have been made about the status of planners and the difficulties of recruitment and retention. As it happens, I was in Holland on Friday and met some people in the Amsterdam planning department, including a young man who was well qualified but was assisting with work on an informal basis. When we explained the difficulty with recruitment in this country, he said, "Where do I look? How do I come over? How do I get a job?". We explained the reality of the cost of living in London, but that was his immediate response. In London, we depend on some good planners from Australia and New Zealand, in particular, to ensure that staffing problems are not exacerbated—or, as I read in a wonderful malapropism in a report last week, "exasperated".
Having said that, we find it difficult to support the amendment. I examined the provisions of the Local Government Act 1972 to find out what local authorities had to do when appointing officers and deciding on their establishment. It had never occurred to me to consider that before. Section 112(1) of the Act states that,
- "a local authority shall appoint such officers as they think necessary for the proper discharge by the authority of such of their . . . functions as fall to be discharged by them".
Perhaps more importantly, would it reverse the entirely proper trend, or objective, of mainstreaming the sustainable development duty? The noble Lord, Lord Best, said that that is exactly what is intended to be achieved by the post. One could view that either way. In any event, we need to be better convinced than we are about intervening in the exercise of a local authority's autonomy in that or any other area. On the
terminology of the new clause, I wondered what was in the noble Lord's mind when referring to the appointment of a "fit person". One would hope that no unfit person would be appointed.Perhaps the Government can help me with something that was troubling me last night. However Clause 40 ends up—whether the provision states "with a view to contributing to sustainable development", or whatever—will the monitoring officer of an authority have a role if that duty is not complied with? My experience is the same as that of the noble Baroness. I should expect there to be a director of planning; I should also expect directors of other departments to have sustainable development very much in their sights. But will the monitoring officer have a role in ensuring that that duty is exercised?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Best, retabling the amendment. I have a wealth of notes about what we have done to raise the esteem of planning, resources and skills. Sir John Egan is considering those issues generally. But what noble Lords really want to know is what the Government are going to do about it.
There is also the point about giving local government discretion to appoint its officers. Certain officers—finance officers, I suppose; and I think that there was another one.
Lord Hanningfield: Monitoring.
Lord Rooker: Yes, my Lords, the monitoring officer. That came out of the poll tax legislation, if I recall correctly—the Local Government Finance Act 1988.
We have an idea whose time has come. We want to discuss it with the Local Government Association. We will contact it before the end of the week to discover its views; we have not done so yet. No one here spoke on behalf of the LGA as such. Education and social services are slightly different, because their services are directly related to individual persons. I understand the case for having someone designated in those areas. Nevertheless, their title does not always include social services; that varies between authorities. Housing is another such example.
However, given the thrust of the Bill and the climate of cultural change that we want, we intend to explore that matter with the Local Government Association. I shall write to noble Lords on the precise question about the monitoring officer's role, if that is acceptable. In view of that positive response, I hope that the noble Lord will not pursue his amendment.
Lord Best: My Lords, I underline planners' appreciation of the Government's other efforts to enhance their status. In the light of those positive comments and the thought that the Minister's bag may contain one more such goodie, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Hanham moved Amendment No. 119:
- After Clause 39, insert the following new clause—
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, she has already spoken to it.
Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I have checked that this is debatable at this point and should like to make a short explanation.
Lord Rooker: This is an ego trip.
Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I do not think it is an ego trip. As a matter of courtesy to the noble Baroness and your Lordships, I should like to say a word or two about why we will not be supporting the amendment—which I should have thought might be welcome to the noble Lord.
Lord Hanningfield: Perhaps the noble Baroness will change her mind, then.
Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, said, the Minister may persuade me to go through the other Lobby.
The Minister has already told us that he will come back to this issue on Third Reading. We obviously want to see what that offer will include. Attached as I fear the noble Baroness is to the amendment, life has moved on since the definition was composed. We could debate the issue at great length, which I shall not do, but it implies that other matters are excluded. I am now much more accustomed to thinking of sustainability in terms of the pillars of environment, social improvement and economics. Although I understand that the human environment could be construed as extending to those, it is not obvious that it does so. Each of those matters—and, indeed, the conservation of natural resources—is sine qua non.
The definition in Amendment No. 119 is not as extensive as it should be. I am quite attracted by the Government's attitude and approach, which is to allow for flexibility as thinking moves forward and to ensure that any definition is not so inflexible as to be exclusive and unhelpful rather than helpful.
I apologise if that was an improper intervention. I thought it right to explain it just before the vote.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I shall reply to the noble Baroness and start by apologising to her.
I am new to this place. I have been here less than three years, and I cannot get used to the idea of grouping amendments, having a debate on the group and then coming back to them now before a vote. I am used to the workings in the other place, where there is
I realise that that may be the rules, or should I say that there are no rules here. That is the point. I am told that there is self-regulation. I cannot get used to the idea, but I am grateful for the support of the noble Baroness and her friends.
Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I wish to test the opinion of the House.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 119) shall be agreed to?
"MEANING OF SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT
Sustainable development is development which preserves or enhances the human and natural environment."
6.32 p.m.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Blackwell, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Byford, B.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chorley, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Crickhowell, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Geddes, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Henley, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kingsland, L.
Laird, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Montrose, D.
Moynihan, L.
Northesk, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Sheppard of Didgemere, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Ullswater, V.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wilcox, B.
Windlesham, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Best, L.
Borrie, L.
Brennan, L.
Bridges, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crawley, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falkender, B.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B. [Teller]
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fearn, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Greenway, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jones, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Newby, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Palmer, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Prashar, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Razzall, L.
Robertson of Port Ellen, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
6.42 p.m.
Baroness Hanham moved Amendment No. 120:
- After Clause 39, insert the following new clause—
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