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Lord Alli: My Lords, while I have come late to the debate, I speak as one who recognises good design as important and as an important part of the planning process. As my noble friends Lord Rogers and Lady Blackstone could not be in their places today, I am happy to add my support from these Benches to the amendment.

Design should always be at the heart of the planning process; much was said about that in previous debates. The Minister himself advocated that route. Noble Lords have argued previously that design should feature in the Bill, and I agree. That would send out a clear and loud message that poor design quality is unacceptable. We should give local authorities that want to raise the quality of their built environment something that gives them the necessary confidence and support to challenge planning applications on design grounds.

Less confident planning authorities are often fearful of taking on developers on design grounds, not least for fear of litigation. A clear reference to design in the Bill would go a long way. Far from being a burden on planning authorities, such a duty to consider design quality would be of enormous assistance.

I am not advocating a definition of good design. Although I think that I would be a good judge of good design, such a definition does not belong in the Bill. That would be too inflexible. Useful guidance can be provided through policy guidance by government. A primary legislative duty backed up by genuinely useful guidance is just what planners and communities need. I hope that the Minister will aid our quest in ensuring that good design features in the planning process.

Baroness Hanham: My Lords, at a previous stage I made a small intervention to say that in my experience one was usually guided by the fact that design is subjective and therefore could not really be tested. I always thought it extremely strange that one should not be able to suggest that particular designs were appropriate for particular neighbourhoods and areas. The noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, said that we should not be able to interfere in architectural design, but in some cases it is important that we should be able to do so, if a bad neighbour is building in a particular setting.

Baroness Maddock: My Lords, I did not make myself clear. I said that when talking about design we are not imposing a particular architectural style. It is

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not about saying that it always has to be a certain way. It is not a straitjacket, but that does not mean that architecture is not an important consideration.

Baroness Hanham: My Lords, perhaps I did not express myself clearly. As I understood it, the point was that the architecture was important but it could not be the prime mover. Architecture can be and is important. The question of the internal design of a building is a different aspect, but the environment design is fundamental. We should look at what has happened to some of the large estates; for example, in my borough we have spent a long time trying to unscramble some of the vagaries of the 1960s. We have been left with large local authority estates with winding corridors and ill-lit places with many spooky corners, where no one is particularly comfortable. It is important that such areas can be taken into account.

I support this move because it is different from those prevalent in the past. It would change attitudes in planning and therefore I support it.

Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, I wanted to bring in the Sustainable Communities element. I have spoken privately to the Minister about it, as in Essex we are concerned with the Thames Gateway, Harlow and so on—big regeneration projects where design is important. I know that the Government are keen to build houses quickly in many such areas. Essex County Council is very involved in the regeneration and redevelopment of Basildon; it has a team of people there.

County councils are often the only bodies with the people and resources to do that. In largely removing county councils from the planning process the Government might be shooting themselves in the foot over some of the design issues and the speed of development. Will the Minister comment on how soon we will know what is in the Government's mind about Third Reading? We might want to table amendments at Third Reading and we need to know the Government's position. Will he comment on the speed and the sustainable communities? It might not be the type of development and design that we would like, if there is not enough time to think and plan it and the right resource and the right type of people to help us do it.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I take the final point, although I cannot be specific about the dates of Third Reading—we will fix them as quickly as possible. We had an interesting debate in Committee in which I said that one way or another we would include design in the Bill. I cannot at this moment give chapter and verse on how that will be achieved. Three or four options are being discussed with the planning Ministers. We have some ideas about how we can bring it successfully into the Bill. I am optimistic that we will find an acceptable provision; it just has to get through the red tape and machinery of government. We will give as much advance warning as possible.

The noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, is right about the Sustainable Communities Plan. It will be involved in many parts of the country with some of the larger

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developments and in the housing renewal areas covered by Pathfinders. The Commission for Architecture and the Built Environment will be involved; that is part of our policy and why it received a substantial increase in its resources in the spending round. Although the sums were relatively small, they marked a gigantic advance in resources. We are determined to ensure that the sustainable communities programme will be sustainable and thus, by definition, will incorporate good design. Almost by definition, poor design is not sustainable.

We shall come back to this at Third Reading, although long before that we shall indicate what the Government intend to do so that colleagues can better understand the position. I shall be happy to put the proposal in the context of the sustainable communities programme and the other documents recently published to emphasise that this is a crucial part of what we are doing.

Although we are doing this anyway, given the strength of the debate in Committee, it has become clear that a provision ought to be put on to the face of the Bill. However, that is to be done while arguing at the same time that other issues should not be so included, and we think that we have a formula that enables us to do that.

7 p.m.

Lord Lucas: My Lords, I shall not hold my breath until Third Reading, but the fact that we will have something at least a few days before and thus have a chance to digest and talk about it in order to decide how to address it is extremely valuable.

I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken, in particular my friend the noble Lord, Lord Alli, who is new to the debate. On such occasions it is most helpful to receive support from behind the Minister, who cannot turn that far round without getting a crick in his neck. I shall rely on the noble Lord and his noble friends to be present at Third Reading to cheer on their noble friend on the Front Bench.

I hope that the provision will be strong. I know that the draft of PPS1 is sensible, stressing that one should not seek unreasonably to impose a style. But there are times when that has to be done. If there is a concept of how a city centre should look and work, it will require forms of design that can fit within some form of tramline so that the whole thing works together. There is a difference between the city centres of, say, Newcastle upon Tyne and Hull which makes it obvious how much the spirit of a place is rooted in its design. Newcastle demonstrates an integration of style and layout that makes the place a pleasure to be in, both uplifting and grand. The same is much more difficult to say of Hull, which had the bad luck to be bombed flat in the war and rebuilt quite soon afterwards.

Not every local authority will produce such a vision, but where authorities do so, and it is one presumably shared by the local populace, it is very important that they should be able to have a say in how their town or

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city will look. One of the features of the past 20 years has been how cities such as Newcastle have reinvented themselves through design, developing an enormous spirit of place and time. Part of that process is the very important right to have the choice, when deciding how a place should look as it grows, to say, "No, that style does not fit this place. We want something in tune with our overall vision". I hope that we shall see a strong provision along those lines, and I look forward to seeing it. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 40 [Local development orders]:

[Amendment No. 122 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]

Baroness Hamwee moved Amendment No. 122A:

Page 23, line 7, at end insert "and must provide reasons for that direction"

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 122A, which may provide the Minister with another opportunity to give the House good news. The amendment seeks to provide that if the Secretary of State or the National Assembly for Wales think that a local development order made under new Section 61B is unsatisfactory and give a direction for it to be modified, they should give reasons.

I prepared this amendment before I received a welcome letter from the Minister saying that, as he had indicated previously, the Government are sympathetic to this point. However, I am not sure that I am reading the note correctly because it mentions "revoking" an order. It may be that I am being overly optimistic. At the time the Minister wrote that he thought the Bill should be amended to take the point on board and would table amendments to that effect at the next opportunity. His Amendment No. 123A seems to achieve that. I had hoped that the amendment would extend to cover the point raised in Amendment No. 122A; that is, the direction for modification and not only the revocation. Perhaps I will be able to tempt the Minister to take the point a little further. I beg to move.

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