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Baroness Hamwee moved Amendment No. 130B:
- Page 26, line 16, after "permission" insert "(whether for full or outline permission)"
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, Amendment No. 130B is grouped with Amendments Nos. 131 and 134, to which my noble friend Lady Maddock has attached her name. They are to be introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, or, perhaps, by my noble friend—there is some negotiation going on behind me. They are perhaps the more important amendments in the group. My amendment is a small one.
We have already talked today about the problems with statements of development principle and the Government's concern to see that outline applications contain more detail than is currently required. I said that I supported that, and I made a note to table Amendment No. 130B some time ago, in order to show that we did not oppose everything that the Government were doing. It was intended to be helpful, and I had not appreciated that we would probably cover the point in an earlier debate. I beg to move.
Baroness Maddock: My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments Nos. 131 and 134. We have had the debate about the importance of design, and I shall not repeat the arguments. The amendments would ensure that design elements were an important part of consideration for outline planning permission. Local authorities would have the power to demand that people considered the design principles.
There is not a lot more to say, as we have had the debate. I hope that, when the Minister tables the promised amendments about the importance of design in the planning process, as set out in the Bill, he will ensure that they deal with all the stages. We have rehearsed the arguments about how important it is, but the earlier people start considering the design of buildings, the better chance we will have of ensuring that the final product is satisfactory. It sends a very powerful message that this is not something tacked on at the end, when the local authority complains about the standard of design in a planning application, but that it starts at the very first stage. I hope that the Minister can reassure us that he will have that in mind when he brings forward his proposals at Third Reading.
Lord Lucas: My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, said, we have had this debate. We have also heard some very helpful noises from the Minister and I understand that this is something we shall get at Third Reading. It is always very difficult to have to wait until Third Reading because one never knows quite what one will get. One has to hold one's breath and hope that it will turn out right, that one will be able to accept it and that it will be what is wanted.
I am optimistic. These amendments are about honesty; they are about making sure that developers are up-front about what they want to do and about the impact that it will have on local communities. What
developers say at outline stage should be carried through in the final design and any differences should be made absolutely clear so that people's attention can be drawn to them so that they can comment on them and deal with them as they wish. I am hoping for an encouraging holding reply from the Minister on these amendments.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, and the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, have said, we have debated this subject. There is not a great deal more that I can add.
These amendments are interesting because they get down to the detail of how in practice design might work as part of the planning process. Reflecting on my local government experience, it is how the framework is set and what is implied by having a statement of design principles submitted with outline planning applications that creates the opportunity for discussion, debate, refinement and further thought about what is to be achieved through a particular development, the benefits that might accrue to the community and how it might improve the quality of civic space. These are interesting amendments for that reason.
As the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, has said, proposals will be brought back at Third Reading that will include design on the face of the Bill. There has been a lot of consultation. My speaking note tells me that there have been some very valuable discussions on these issues with the British Property Federation, the House Builders Federation and the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors which welcomed the statement that was made about design on 15 December.
I hope that the Government can match the aspirations that have been discussed in your Lordships' House. It is certainly our intention to move in that direction. Having heard that, I hope that the noble Lord and the noble Baroness will not move the amendments that they have tabled at this stage and will await Third Reading.
Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I am not sure that there was any response to Amendment No. 130B. Perhaps the Minister thought that I was not asking for one, but I hate to deprive him of the opportunity of getting something on the record on the part of the Government.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for the prompt. Amendment No. 130B suggests that applications for planning permission cover both outline and full applications. Our response is that if we were to decide to retain outline planning permission—and, as the noble Baroness will know, there is an internal discussion going on about that issue—this amendment would, so far as we are concerned, be unnecessary. The reason for this is that the term "planning permission" covers both outline and full permission. I am sure that the noble Baroness understands that. For that reason, and because there are continuing discussions on the issue, it is not an amendment to which we are attracted. I am
sorry that that is the case, and I know that it will not make the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, overly happy, but I am sure that she will understand why it is the case.
Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, on the contrary, I am much happier that there is substantive work going on than I would be by winning a small Brownie point tonight.
I do not detect any wish to continue the debate about design principles at this stage, as dealt with in this amendment and the others in the group. As the noble Lord said, we welcome the fact that the matter is being taken forward and we are beginning to address some of the detail of how that might happen. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 131 not moved.]
Lord Hanningfield moved Amendment No. 132:
- Page 26, line 25, leave out "they think" and insert "are"
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I do not think that we need delay the House for too long on Amendments Nos. 132 and 133.
When I raised the matter in Committee, it was heartening to hear the Minister defend local authority discretion. However, I am still keen to know whether it is possible, under the current language of Clause 43, for two local planning authorities that share a border to demand that entirely different particulars be included in a planning application for the same development.
Of course, as everyone knows, we defend local autonomy and discretion, so we will not press the amendment today. The language as it stands might be welcome to us. I seek clarification about the issue of the local planning authorities' freedom to decide what is necessary for inclusion in planning applications. How does this freedom relate to development orders that specify what applications should contain? Do the Government believe that the difference between two authorities on what must be included on applications could be a source of delay in the delivery of a cross-border project? I look forward to the Minister's response. I beg to move.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, one way of answering the noble Lord is this: if you genuinely believe in the local planning authority's discretion, then, if there is a cross-border project, each authority must be left to deal with its own part of the project. You cannot, on the one hand, give them maximum discretion to do it in their own way, and, on the other, seek to constrain them because there happens to be a cross-border project. I do not know of many examples.
Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, is the Minister going to condone a road that is three-lane, two-lane, one-lane, three-lane, two-lane, one-lane as it goes through various authorities?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, life is not like that. Planning authorities are not stupid. It is true that they may be open to criticism. I do not have many examples—though roads are obviously a good example—but I can think of other projects.
For example, there is a former industrial site in one of the growth areas in Northamptonshire which is now another kind of enterprise altogether. It is in one of my photographs in the exhibition that opened today at Westminster Hall. I did not know that the boundary of two local authorities went through the site. When the steelworks was demolished and proposals were produced for the motor speedway at Rockingham, one authority had one policy on helicopter landings and the other one had a different policy. But they came to an agreement, and the development went ahead. They were sensible about it and did it their way. I asked how the local authority boundary had ended up going through the middle of a steelworks, but I understand that that was an accident of history. I cannot be more precise than that.
However, we genuinely believe that local authorities must be allowed to exercise their judgment in deciding what information additional to that provided by the prescribed standard application they need in order to make the assessment. I realise that the amendments are probing, but their effect would be to remove the local authority's discretion.
The noble Lord has not given me any examples of cross-border developments other than that of roads in which there has not been a satisfactory outcome to a problem. So that is best left to the local authority. It is true that introducing a standard planning application form to be used by all local authorities in England is a change, but it provides the essential information that local authorities will need to determine the application.
As an example, let us consider what happens if a developer makes an application to neighbouring authorities for developments that are essentially the same. It could do so by providing the same level of information on the same form. It is true that each authority, because their areas will be different, may come back to ask for a little bit of extra, different information relevant to its site. It is up to them if they want to do that. If they want information specific to the area, they must have discretion to demand it. However, in the absence of any examples of where satisfactory outcomes have not been achieved, I rest my case.
9.15 p.m.
Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response. As I said initially, it is a probing amendment. We wanted the Government to clarify their position; we shall obviously read and think about his response, but this is not one of the most important issues of the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 133 and 134 not moved.]
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