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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: We support the amendment.

5.45 p.m.

Lord Triesman: The noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Hendon, is quite right: the current wording of Section 36 of the Gas Act 1986 and Section 39 of the Electricity Act 1989 gives the authority adequate direction on what should be placed on the register. Both the Electricity and Gas Acts give very specific directions about what should be placed on the register. On the one occasion when the authority was challenged, with regard to the information that had not been placed on the register, the judge made no criticism of the authority, as the relevant information had been drawn to the attention of the entire industry, in any case.

As the current set-up is clearly not failing, it is a little hard to see why it is necessary to make this particular change. This is a time when all of us—I suspect that we can count on all noble Lords on all sides of these discussions to agree with this point—are seeking to minimise the burden that legislation places on private and public sector entities. However, a blanket requirement of this kind would increase the amount of work imposed on the authority, which would be all right if there was a discernible benefit. I hope I am persuading noble Lords that in this case there would not be a discernible benefit.

At a later point in Committee we shall discuss better regulatory practices. The authority is fully signed up to being guided by them. The principles of better regulation themselves include the idea that one should legislate only where it is necessary to do so—a point that we have mentioned in several of our discussions—and that legislation should be specific and targeted. The phrases in the amendment, "every determination" and "any provision", rather suggest that there would not be the kind of targeting or specificity which would be most beneficial.

Overall, the requirements of the Gas and Electricity Acts for the authority to keep a register are expressed in broad terms. We believe that this approach delivers better results than if we were to be too prescriptive. The authority is committed to placing a wide range of public information on the register once such information is in final form. I believe that only the authority is in a really sound position to decide on that.

Of course, the register in itself would not, and should not, be the only method of finding out about the authority's decisions. The authority has a thorough process when it comes to ensuring that information is drawn to the attention of those affected.

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I was grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, for referring to the storms of 2002 because I believe that they provide interesting illustrations of what I mean. Determinations made after the storms of 2002 were put on the public register. These determinations were also provided electronically to everyone who requested them. MPs in every area affected by the storms of 2002 were also sent copies.

Requests for determinations are rare but, when they do come in, it is already the authority's practice to send out information to everyone who has requested it, although some information such as financial declarations is considered confidential and that is omitted. The complete determination is provided only to the parties.

While the current statutory requirement requires the authority only to make the contents of the register open for inspection, the practice of sending out the information is a good example of why we believe that giving the authority some discretion already produces very effective results. There seems no need for any driving force that would make us over-prescriptive.

I understand—this seems to me to be important—that no requests for determinations have ever been turned down. I hope that provides reassurance on the point. In practice the measure seems to work as the noble Baroness, from what she has said, would wish and I hope that she will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

Baroness Miller of Hendon: In a few moments I shall certainly withdraw the amendment. I shall read very carefully what the Minister said. I do not wish to waste the Committee's time but I do not see why two Acts are able to accommodate the provision that we are discussing while this Bill cannot. The mere fact that no one has asked about the matter does not mean that the measure is not necessary. I suggest that it is not unnecessary. If the relevant information is kept in the register, that is all right. It should not be too difficult to do that. However, having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendment No. 132C not moved.]

Clause 150 [Additional inspectors]:

Lord Williams of Elvel moved Amendment No. 132CA:

Page 115, line 30, after "State" insert "or the National Assembly for Wales"

The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 132CA I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 132CB to 132CF. Members of the Committee will recognise that this is an appropriate day—St David's day—on which to move such amendments. I am unsure—I shall ask my noble friend to explain—whether St Andrew is also involved in this matter. I speak only for St David although Scotland may also be involved.

I shall recite the meaning behind the amendments. This part of the Bill is concerned with general regulations amending the Electricity Act 1989. That

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Act was passed before devolution, so Sections 36 and 37 and Schedule 8 to the Electricity Act 1989 have nothing to do with devolution. Part of my purpose is to ensure that the Bill becomes part of the devolutionary principle.

We are dealing with planning matters; we are not dealing with the production of energy. Perhaps I may take the Committee through the existing situation. If a generating station as defined in Section 36 of the Electricity Act 1989—this is not an issue of wind farms but of any generating station which makes an application—has an installed capacity of over 50 megawatts, it goes through a certain procedure and if it is under 50 megawatts it goes through another procedure. Under Section 37 high voltage overhead lines go through a more or less similar procedure.

What are those procedures? In Schedule 8 the procedures are defined as follows: if the local planning authority objects to the planning application for a fossil fuel station, a nuclear power station, a wind farm or whatever, the Secretary of State is obliged to create a public inquiry. On the other hand, if the local authority says, "It is all very well, it seems a good idea to have a nuclear power station in Ceredigion", or wherever, as long as it is 50 megawatts plus it will not go to the National Assembly for Wales, but straight to the Secretary of State. The National Assembly for Wales has absolutely no locus in this matter at all. That was shown in one famous incident of a wind farm on the Cambrian Mountains, but I shall not go into that. That went straight to the Secretary of State, who said, "That is fine; the Ceredigion county council has said that it is okay by them". I have no particular brief against the Ceredigion county council, but I want to illustrate to the Committee what happens when Welsh county councils are, for one reason or another, decisive in their view that they want a particular piece of machinery on their hills.

When we come to a public inquiry, the Secretary of State appoints an inspector; the National Assembly for Wales, which has no locus whatever, has nothing to do with it. So Clause 150 in the Bill proposes that Schedule 8 to the Electricity Act 1989 be amended to allow the Secretary of State to appoint the lead inspector in matters concerning Wales. That does not apply to Scotland—I hope that I shall receive some information on how it may or may not apply to Scotland—but it applies to Wales.

My amendments simply say that if there are to be public inquiries, the National Assembly for Wales should have a locus. I hope that the Committee and my noble friend will consider this issue sympathetically, not because I am speaking for St David—although I am sure that if St David were here he would support me—but because I believe that if the Government wish devolution, the Government must will the means for devolution. I beg to move.

Baroness Miller of Hendon: My noble friend Lord Roberts of Conwy is unfortunately unable to be here today due to a tragedy in his family. He very much regrets that he cannot be with the Committee but, had he been here, he would most certainly have supported

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the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel. Although I do not have all the information that he would have given, it is right that I should tell the Committee that that is our position.

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: I am sure that if my noble friend Lord Livsey of Talgarth were here, he would also have spoken at great length—well, at some length—and would have supported the amendment very strongly.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour: I notice from the Explanatory Notes to the Bill that the reason why the clause does not apply to Scotland is that developments in this respect will be in the hands of Scottish Ministers. That is all right by St Andrew, I am sure. However, will the Minister tell the Grand Committee whether the amendment and the clause that we are discussing are affected by the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Bill? I thought that I understood that changes were being made in it that affected this issue, but I may be wrong.

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