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Lord Jenkin of Roding: I rise only to make one point. Of course, I agree with the point made by my noble friend Lady Miller of Hendon. I should in addition like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, on having produced his amendment on St. David's Day. He is wearing a symbol of the day in his lapel. His ability to manage the proceedings of the Grand Committee staggers one's admiration.

Lord Davies of Oldham: Several actors on the Grand Committee have been complicit in ensuring that this amendment appeared on St. David's day, for all sorts of reasons. In responding to my noble friend, I can tell him that he has quite a good case but he has brought it to the wrong Bill. That is what I am going to argue with him in a moment. He is well aware of the fact that great concern was expressed in Wales over the proposed development of the wind farm in the Cambrian mountains. It raised very significant issues, to which he referred. I am grateful that he referred to the issue en passant, including it as substance for his case, without going substantially into the issues, as I would have recognised the strength of the position that that illustrated.

Suffice it to say that we regard the amendments as partial, in any case. They refer to additional inspectors, when what my noble friend is seeking is that the whole concept of who should appoint the lead inspector and additional inspectors and who should make the decision on the proposal should be shifted, in Wales, from the Secretary of State to the National Assembly.

We have been active in the wake of concerns that have been reflected. There is a tripartite working group of officials from the Wales Office, the National Assembly and the DTI already under way to examine the issues of whether consenting powers on power stations, and possibly other aspects of energy infrastructure, should be transferred from central government to the devolved administration. That is the burden of the amendment. That work is ongoing

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and will not report in the immediate future, but it will provide the base for potential legislative changes. But those changes would affect very significant statutory processes and transfer them to the National Assembly, if such a strategy were agreed on. My noble friend will appreciate that the vehicle for that transfer would probably be a transfer of functions order under the Government of Wales Act 1998 rather than this particular Bill. That work is being carried out against a background where the case which my noble friend put forward has significant substance and is strongly supported in Wales.

I have no doubt that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, indicated, had her noble friend been present, we should have had the additional force of the argument being presented in lilting Welsh tones. It is a matter of great regret to us that he is not present today—for reasons that we understand. I mention, en passant, that he was unable to be present during debate on another Wales Bill last week in which I participated. Therefore, it is not only on St David's Day that the interests of Wales are involved in our deliberations in Grand Committee.

The Scots have not asked for this development, probably because Scottish planning legislation is vastly different from that of Wales. The Welsh legislation forms an integral part of the English and Welsh position. That is why the crucial question of the devolved administration and the position of the National Assembly comes into force in relation to Wales, but the same anxieties do not exist in Scotland.

I hope that my noble friend will recognise that the Government are not standing idly by against the background of the furore created last year with regard to Cefn Croes. There are other potential projects which affect Wales. But, in this respect, we are working towards the National Assembly as opposed to central government playing a proper role in this matter. However, this is not the Bill in which to provide for that and, in any event, as I believe my noble friend will recognise, the amendments fall considerably short of the necessary changes expected in legislation to achieve the objective that he seeks and for which I evince a degree of sympathy.

6 p.m.

Lord Dixon-Smith: I would not particularly blame the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, or his noble friend if they felt that, instead of being frightfully active, the Government were moving rather slowly beside them. However, surely if the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, redrafted his amendments so that, in effect, they were amendments to the Electricity Act 1989, they would be valid here and entirely appropriate. It is not for me to tell him how to table his amendments, but I thought that that point should be made.

Baroness Byford: My noble friend has poached what I was intending to say. I simply add that I am, again, alarmed to hear that the provision would be brought forward in the form of an order as the Minister suggests that this is not the right Bill and not the right

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place. However, I believe that we have had enough of that. If we can address this issue in a more direct way, I believe that we should do so. Indeed, my noble friend put forward a very good suggestion in that respect. I do not consider that it is acceptable simply to deal with matters in an order when we have the opportunity to put the provision on to the face of the Bill. Therefore, I support the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel.

Lord Williams of Elvel: I am most grateful to my noble friend for expressing some sympathy with what I said. I agree that the amendments that I have tabled today do no more than simply trade an important issue. However, I do not believe that a tripartite group will produce anything in the immediate future. In fact, my noble friend used the words, "not in the immediate future ... probably a transfer of functions order".

Nothing concentrates the Government's mind so much as an amendment on the face of the Bill. Therefore, I give my noble friend notice that, when we reach Report, I shall take further action to amend paragraph 2 of Schedule 8 to the Electricity Act 1989, which, instead of conferring powers on the Secretary of State, confers those powers, so far as concerns Wales, on the National Assembly for Wales. I hope very much, and am sure, that noble Lords opposite will support me. I also hope that the Government will understand that I am determined. For the first time since 1997, I propose to oppose the Government if my amendments are not accepted. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendments Nos. 132CB to 132CF not moved.]

On Question, Whether Clause 150 shall stand part of the Bill?

Lord Dixon-Smith: This is a probing debate. We need to have a serious discussion at this stage about what the Bill does. In my view, it seeks to perpetuate what I regard as an ethical anomaly in the practice of government. I stumbled on this matter by accident. I draw the attention of the Committee to Clause 150, headed "Additional inspectors", and to subsections (2), (3), (4) and (5) and I shall read another Bill to the Committee which states:

"The Secretary of State may direct the lead inspector—

(a) to consider such matters relating to the application as are prescribed;

(b) to make recommendations to the Secretary of State on those matters.

(3) After considering any recommendations of the lead inspector the Secretary of State may—

(a) appoint such number of additional inspectors as he thinks appropriate;

(b) direct that each additional inspector must consider such matters relating to the application as the lead inspector decides.

(4) An additional inspector must—

(a) comply with such directions as to procedural matters as the lead inspector gives;

(b) report to the lead inspector on the matter he is appointed to consider".

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A little later on in what I am reading, it states:

"(7) In every case the lead inspector must report to the Secretary of State on—

(a) his consideration of the application;

(b) the consideration of the additional inspectors (if any) of the matters mentioned in subsection (3)(b).

There is an amazing congruence between those two pieces of legislation. They are both before the House at this time. It is not surprising that there is a congruence because this second Bill deals with planning and compulsory purchase powers. In that Bill Clause 44 deals with major infrastructure projects of national or regional significance, which would obviously include major power transmission lines and major generating stations.

The fact is that we have two planning systems in this country: we have a planning system that deals with planning matters that are normally dealt with and the energy department has its own planning system which deals with energy planning matters. I tried to find out the background to this situation. We are concerned with amending the Electricity Act 1989, but I asked myself whether that was always the situation and I do not believe that it was. Going back to the Town and Country Planning Act 1971, which is mentioned in the Electricity Act 1989, I find that statutory undertakers are dealt with and that is a different world. I suspect that the roots of this matter go right back to the 1940s. Section 225 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1971 states:

"Where—

"(a) an application for planning permission to develop land to which this subsection applies is made by statutory undertakers and is referred to the Secretary of State"—

this is a planning Act and would concern a different Secretary of State from the Electricity Act—

"under Part III of this Act; or

(b) an appeal is made to the Secretary of State under Part III of this Act ...

the application or appeal shall be dealt with by the Secretary of State and the appropriate Minister".

In Section 224 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1971, there is a definition of the appropriate Minister. It states:

"In this Act the 'appropriate Minister' . . . in relation to statutory undertakers carrying on an undertaking for the supply of electricity, gas or hydraulic power, means the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry",

which is now the DTI. The significant part of the Town and Country Planning Act 1971 is that,

"an application . . . or an appeal . . . shall be dealt with by the Secretary of State [dealing with planning] and the appropriate Minister".

So, in those days there was presumably joined-up government. The department took the planning lead—responsible for planning—and it was done in conjunction with the then appropriate government department.

I went back to the Town and Country Planning Act 1962 to see whether I could get to the root of the matter, because that was the predecessor Act. I found more or less parallel wording. The fact of the matter is that we have a situation in which the government

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department responsible for studying and dealing with energy matters is also the planning department that has to grant the planning approval.

I suggest that that is an ethical conflict of interest, which really should be dealt with. The Bill seeks to perpetuate the situation. I can understand that because it seems to me that it will be quite complicated to try to deal with it. I wonder whether we should take the opportunity, particularly now that the power industries are private industries, to put them on planning parity with everyone else, and to remove the planning powers of the DTI so that planning matters are dealt with under the legislation which is going through the House with precisely the same words in the planning and compulsory purchase powers.

It was mere coincidence that I happened to read those two parts of these two separate pieces of legislation at almost the same time and I was alerted to this particular anomaly. It is an anomaly that could be dealt with at this stage. I thought that we should at the very least have a serious discussion to consider whether or not we should deal with it at this stage.

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