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Baroness Carnegy of Lour: I was speaking from a background of having been at a meeting last week in rural Perthshire at which enormous anxiety was expressed about a very large new transmission line for which planning permission is being sought. There is great public reaction against it, and particularly against the other subsidiary lines that would have to be installed for something like 500 windmills right down the backbone of rural Scotland. It seems to me that, when something such as this occurs, it is terribly important that the process should be seen to be absolutely fair to people. It should not look like dictatorship in any way at all. That was what was worrying me—public reaction. One uses the argument about the Court of Human Rights but I did not know about the case that the noble Lord mentioned, which is probably relevant. Public relations are important with regard to this whole issue. We all know that energy has to be provided. The public know that. However, it is one's own backyard that is then damaged.
Lord Whitty: The question of compatibility with the convention is focused on what a Bill changes. What this Bill and the Bill currently under consideration in the Chamber change are some of the procedures for
major projects under the relevant planning systems. The question of whether there is sufficient time and scope to object to and present cases through the planning system as envisaged by these new provisions has been judged on all legal advice to be compatible with the convention. Had the Alconbury case, to which I referred, gone the other way, it would have given us cause to raise the issue of the compatibility of the judge and jury issue that applies to existing legislation. However, it did not go the other way. Therefore, that issue was not addressed as noble Lords in their judicial capacity provided a judgment on it.6.30 p.m.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: Will the Minister consider another example of why streamlining might produce a difficulty? Streamlining is often a suspicious word, I think—it means that things will be speeded up, often to the detriment of the public. It may be that inquiries have taken too long in the past but if they are streamlined to the point that they stop the public taking a full part, that is undesirable.
The Government propose having several inspectors dealing with issues concurrently. Where a community chose to employ a lawyer to argue its case in front of an inspector or an expert—whether or not it was a lawyer—it would then have to have several people arguing the case concurrently in front of these inspectors, and that might cause a difficulty. At least in a planning inquiry where there is one inspector, one expert can be employed; it tends to be expensive for communities to employ such people. Have the Government considered that community representation will be somewhat undermined by this proposal?
Lord Whitty: For major inquiries, even under the previous system, there is usually a pre-inquiry at which all the significant parties talk to the inspector and decide on the way in which the procedure will operate, marshalling evidence on how that is to be conducted for the convenience of everybody.
I should have thought that if a single entity could have a number of parallel things going on at the same time, some of which were of interest and some of which were not, it would be likely to prove less expensive and time-consuming than a system which was effectively sequential, with everything taking place with the same inspector at the same time. If I was an objector to a major energy—
[The Sitting was suspended for a Division in the House from 6.32 to 6.42 p.m.]
Lord Whitty: I was about to conclude my remarks in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer. I felt that, for a community interest, it is probably more beneficial to conduct certain aspects of the system in parallel, rather than wait for a long inquiry which, like the Sizewell B inquiry, can last several years, through all of which a lawyer has to be retained. I therefore do not think there is any disadvantage in this respect to community
groups and those with limited resources. I think that it will speed up the process while not diminishing the degree of engagement by all those with an interest who are rightly provided for in the planning process.6.45 p.m.
Lord Dixon-Smith: I am particularly grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer and Lady Carnegy, and to my own leading Baroness, Lady Miller of Hendon, for coming in and supporting me on this point. I am very grateful to the Minister for his reply. I think that it has been worth having the discussion.
I said that this was a probing debate. I entirely accept that simply saying that the clause should not stand part of the Bill would not have met the case I sought to argue. Now that I know that the issue goes back to 1899 in respect of power lines and to 1909 in respect of power stations, I am not surprised that I had some difficulty in trying to find my way through the legislative jungle. However, the fact that the history of this goes back that far is not a reason for not changing it. When one looks at the changes that have had to be made in business procedures and practices and across the whole spectrum of commercial life to try to make the system more ethical and more understandable so that it works properly in the interests of the community and shareholders and so on, it becomes apparent that this is a quite small issue. I have to accept that if there was a judgment on the Alconbury case that specifically recognised that it was not inappropriate for a government department to be both promoter and judge in a case, it rather weakens my argument. However, even that is not necessarily a reason why we should not change.
I return to one point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer. She was concerned about complications and inquiries becoming multiple inquiries and therefore perhaps causing representational problems for some members of the public or public groups. There are two sides to that equation. I believe that the Terminal 5 inquiry at Heathrow and even the Sizewell inquiry suffered from the same problem. Ultimately, what happened—certainly with regard to Terminal 5—was that some local authorities which were making representations ran out of funds because of the length of the inquiry. There is an urgent need to speed up the whole inquiry process. I completely support the Government in that.
However, my amendment would not have attacked that issue. I was not seeking to amend the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Bill, which the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, has pointed out contains these accelerated procedures. The two Bills, as I illustrated, are running in precise parallel and therefore the accelerated procedures would still be there. But my view is that it would be ethically more straightforward if a Minister did not have to listen to all the representations that might give rise to the need for power stations. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, was right to mention what might have to happen in the nuclear field and how highly controversial that would be if and when it happened.
The Minister in this one department will have the job, first, of sorting out the policy. He will then have to sort out the specific action. Then he will have to hold the inquiry because you can bet your bottom dollar that there will be one. The same man will have to pass judgment on the results of the inquiry and he will have to judge it against the question of national necessity. I feel sorry for the man who bears all those burdens. That is all I can say.
I shall want to study a little more carefully precisely what the Minister said. I shall probably want to consider the Alconbury judgment, too, but for now I beg leave to withdraw my opposition to the clause standing part of the Bill.
Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 132D:
- After Clause 150, insert the following new clause—
The noble Lord said: The purpose of Amendment No. 132D is to replace a licence condition known as "hydro benefit" in Scotland. This licence condition requires Scottish and Southern Energy's generation business to pay a sum of money to its distribution business in recognition of the fact that the cost of providing power to customers in the north of Scotland is considerably higher than elsewhere because of the terrain and remoteness.
The hydro benefit licence condition needs to be replaced because Ofgem has received clear legal advice that it may be discriminatory under EC law—primarily because the burden falls on one company. It has therefore removed it from the licence given to Scottish and Southern Energy. SSE, however, has pledged to maintain the effects of the licence condition until the provisions of BETTA go live. Those have now been formalised in the price control mechanism. Unlike hydro benefit, the financial assistance proposed under that provision will not be recovered solely from a single company but from all suppliers. All suppliers will therefore be treated in the same way, and will all fund the payment via the transmission charges that they pay to the GB system operator.
The amendment will have the same effect as the hydro benefit provisions, in that it will prevent consumers' bills in the north of Scotland incurring significant price rises that would otherwise result from the removal of the provisions. Initial analysis suggests that a medium-sized standard credit consumer's bill might increase by 10 per cent in the absence of hydro benefit, and the replacement would therefore also avoid an increase not only in bills but also in fuel poverty in the north of Scotland, where there is a very high proportion of households in fuel poverty. It is our intention to maintain the current level of hydro benefit, which was set at £39 million per annum last year. We shall consult on the order to give effect to that for the next six months, and it will therefore be in time for inclusion in the BETTA provisions.
Finally, we are aware that for ease of reference it would be more appropriate to lay the provision as an amendment to the Electricity Act 1989 as opposed to a freestanding clause within the Energy Bill. We are also now aware that there should be a specific provision that would make it clear that the Secretary of State is not entitled to require the production of any document that a court could not require. That means that an amendment will be needed to bring the legislation into line with other information provisions in the 1989 Act. We shall have to come back to tidy that last element at Report stage. However, the main provision in this amendment will ensure that consumers in the north of Scotland do not miss out and that the burden is effectively borne by the system. I beg to move.
"ASSISTANCE FOR AREAS WITH HIGH DISTRIBUTION COSTS
(1) If it appears to the Secretary of State—
(a) that the costs of distributing electricity within a particular area of Great Britain are significantly higher (when calculated on a per customer basis) than in other areas of Great Britain, and
(b) that within that area there are at least 100,000 premises that are connected to the same distribution system,
he may make an order under this section.
(2) An order under this section is one that establishes a scheme which—
(a) requires authorised transmitters to make a payment each year to authorised distributors distributing electricity in that area of Great Britain of such amount as may be determined in accordance with provision contained in the scheme; and
(b) requires the charges imposed by the authorised transmitters on authorised suppliers to be adjusted in accordance with the scheme for the purpose of enabling the transmitters to make that payment.
(3) An order under this section establishing a scheme in relation to the distribution of electricity within a particular area must specify the area.
(4) For the purpose of facilitating the implementation of a scheme for which an order under this section provides, such an order may make such modifications as the Secretary of State considers appropriate of the conditions of the licences of authorised suppliers, of authorised transmitters and of authorised distributors.
(5) For the purpose of carrying out the functions conferred on him by or under this section the Secretary of State may require—
(a) an authorised supplier,
(b) an authorised distributor, or
(c) an authorised transmitter,
to supply him, in a specified form and within a specified time, with information of a specified description.
(6) Before making an order under this section, the Secretary of State must consult such persons as he considers appropriate.
(7) Subsection (6) may be satisfied by consultation that took place wholly or partly before the commencement of this section.
(8) An order under this section is subject to the negative resolution procedure.
(9) Where a scheme established under this section in relation to the distribution of electricity within a particular area is in force, no scheme shall be established under this section in relation to the distribution of electricity outside that area.
(10) Where a scheme is established under this section, it shall be the duty of the Secretary of State to carry out a review of that scheme—
(a) three years after its establishment; and
(b) thereafter at three yearly intervals.
(11) In section 25(8) of the 1989 Act (definitions relating to the provisions of that Act concerned with compliance orders), in the definition of "relevant requirement" at the end insert "or section (Assistance for areas with high distribution costs)(5) of the Energy Act 2004".
(12) In this section—
"authorised distributor" and "authorised supplier" have the same meanings as in Part 1 of the 1989 Act;
"authorised transmitter" means a person authorised by a licence under section 6(1)(b) of that Act to participate in the transmission of electricity;
"distributing", "distribution" and "distribution system" have the same meanings as in Part 1 of that Act;
"licence" means a licence for the purposes of section 4 of that Act;
"premises" has the same meaning as in Part 1 of that Act."
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