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Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, given that on Monday the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland of Asthal, told the House that 50 per cent of the population in this country are men and 50 per cent are women, would the noble Lord care to reconsider his answer and refer to his noble friend the Lord Privy Seal?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am not sure that that is necessary. The Lord Privy Seal is all too well aware of the facts of the position. The reason that legislation is often needed to advance the position of women is because, historically, women have received lower pay than men for the same kind of work and they have received less support than men from the wider society. We make no bones about the fact that there were historical injustices that needed to be put right through our equality legislation.
Baroness Thomas of Walliswood: My Lords, I thank the Minister for those last words. Surely, the interesting
fact about the Minister for Women is that she is the Minister for Women and Equality. On the equality side, or the lack of equality for women in access to senior positions, in pay, in promotion and in a whole range of issues, we still need positive help from Government to assist women. Perhaps the Minister will join me in looking forward to the day when the level of institutional disadvantage to women has been abolished and we no longer need ministries for men or women, or for other people who suffer from unequal status in our society.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I join the noble Baroness in looking forward eagerly to that day. It will be a day on which there will almost certainly be equal numbers of men and women in our elected House.
Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, while agreeing with the Minister that there will not be a Minister for men, which I am pleased to hear—not that I do not like men; I just do not think that it is necessary to have a Minister for men—I have some sympathy with the noble Lord who asked the Question. Men are definitely discriminated against in cases of divorce, where it seems that mothers are automatically given custody of children, and it is sometimes difficult for fathers to get access. I speak with some personal knowledge of this. I wonder whether that could be borne in mind in the general feel of the Question.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Baroness raised some important points. It is not the case that the law automatically discriminates in favour of women; it is a fact that judgments are often in favour of the mother, for reasons that we all recognise. The point that is becoming clear is that the issue of fathers' access rights needs to be approached by the courts more actively than in the past.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, going back to Monday, the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland of Asthal, said to the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, that positive action was a good thing where there was not equality of gender. Does the Minister believe that that should be extended to the teaching profession—where men are very much in the minority, particularly in primary schools where they represent only 15 per cent—the nursing profession, the legal profession, and, coming up, the medical profession? Do the Government believe in positive action in those cases? Would the Minister reconsider his Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, about a Minister for men? It is about time that we had a Minister for men, because they are being hard done by these days.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, of course there will be some professions, and sections of some professions, that may be more attractive to one sex than the other. More women apply for teaching roles in junior schools than is the case for secondary schools. That is, rightly, often lamented by educationists,
because we see the advantage of having significant numbers of men and women in each school as regards providing a balanced educational experience for children. It is not an area on which direct action is possible. We need men to come forward for those roles in greater numbers. That is often the case with other professions in the other direction. We need more women to come forward, and we certainly need to remove barriers where actual discrimination takes place, as it does in some cases.Prison Farms and Gardens
2.53 p.m.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer asked Her Majesty's Government:
- What is their policy with regard to the future of prison farms and gardens on which prisoners work.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the policy of the Prison Service is to expand its horticultural activities, providing an additional 355 work places where certificated training will be provided in grounds maintenance and landscaping, which will better prepare prisoners for jobs on release. To fund this expansion, prison farms comprising field-scale cropping and livestock where few or no prisoners are employed will be phased out. Some land will be sold, with the returns reinvested in increased and modernised horticultural activities.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply and for clarifying the position. Does he agree that although not many prisoners are directly employed on the farms, the farm prison service has been an exemplar of exactly what Defra and the Department of Health are trying to do; that is, it produces fresh food, grown in this country, and makes it available for this country's institutions? It seems that the Home Office is flying in the face of the aim of those two departments, which is the procurement of fresh produce. I also refer to the beneficial effects on prisoners that the preparation and distribution of such fresh food may have.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, on this occasion, the noble Baroness has got it wrong. We are providing increased employment opportunities in this field of activity. By focusing more on horticulture, where there are expanded market opportunities, we will ensure that many of the prisoners are directly involved in providing fresh food and produce for the Prison Service as a whole. Of course, the Prison Service will benefit from that, and prisoners will benefit by producing fresh food.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, could the Minister tell the House whether the reports in the weekend press are accurate that both prison farms and prison institutions are to have the Royal Arms removed from them and henceforth not be known as Her Majesty's Prison Service? If so, why, and how
much will it cost? Is it linked to yesterday's announcement by the Home Secretary that he wishes to remove the Crown from the Crown Prosecution Service?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the noble Lord has asked questions that are well wide of the Question on the Order Paper. As I understand it, there is to be a Statement on the Crown Prosecution Service and its future naming—or not—after Question Time.
Lord Walpole: My Lords, I am sure that the Minister is aware that the stud for Suffolk Punch horses is on the farm at Hollesley Bay prison in Suffolk. Those horses are becoming an endangered breed. Could the Minister tell me what will happen to the stud and whether there is a future for it?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I am aware of the stud at Hollesley Bay prison. There was detailed consultation on the future of the stud and the Suffolk Punch horses. My understanding is that the farm will be sold, along with the land and buildings, to a trust, which will become known as the Suffolk Punch Trust, enabling the horses to remain in their home county. The trust will provide employment and training for prisoners, so the activity that is currently going on there will continue under another guise.
Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: My Lords, given the welcome extra attention that the Prison Service is now putting on rehabilitation, and against the background of the low educational achievement of many young offenders, can my noble friend say whether now that there is a bit more stability in the governance at Feltham prison, the massive opportunities there for horticulture and landscaping experience for prisoners have been restarted?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, as I hoped that I had indicated clearly at the outset, there will be expanded opportunities in the Prison Service for horticultural activities. Young prisoners in particular may well benefit from this and, given that young offenders in general tend to come from urban areas, activities such as landscaping and parks maintenance are skills that will be acquired and developed by participating in the new and expanded service.
Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, is the Minister aware that prisoners won a high award—I think that it was a gold medal—at the Chelsea Flower Show last year? Such a pursuit is not only good for them in the future, but is an excellent way of spending time in prison. I speak as an ex-member of the board of visitors at Pentonville prison, where the meat provided by the prison farms was of excellent quality and was a reasonable price. It would be a pity if the meat produced by prisoners disappeared from prison fare.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I am sure that meat will not disappear from prison fare, but changes are being made. As the noble Baroness will know, in 1996 the pig farm enterprises at Littlehey, The Verne and Everthorpe prisons were closed. Some livestock farms will be retained as part of the changes. The noble Baroness is right that the farm service, and in particular the garden service that takes place in the prison estate, is of the highest quality. On many occasions, prison farms have produced winning entries at important flower shows such as those at Chelsea and Southport.
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