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Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, I am aware of absolutely no suggestion of that. The reason why I identified my own title as Her Majesty's Attorney-General was to indicate that the proposal has nothing to do with discourtesy to the Queen or any lack of pride in the long historical connection that we have to Her Majesty.

Lord Slynn of Hadley: My Lords, has the Attorney-General just said that there is no intention that Her Majesty's judges will cease to be Her Majesty's judges?

Lord Goldsmith: None whatever, my Lords.

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, following on that answer, would the Attorney-General like to take the opportunity to deny the newspaper reports that appeared over the weekend, suggesting that the Home Secretary wished to change the name of Her Majesty's Prison Service to remove the references to "Her Majesty", much to the consternation of the Prison Officers' Union? If that is the case, are we not entitled to expect that Parliament is told these things in advance of the newspapers? Are we not entitled to conclude that there seems to be a link between the Home Secretary's view of the name of the prosecution authority and of the Prison Service? That suggests that an attempt is being made to marginalise the role of the Crown in our constitution.

Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, not at all. With regard to the Prison Service, the Home Office is not planning to drop all references to the Crown. That is untrue.

Lord Campbell of Croy: Any?

Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, I said "all references". I will finish the question, if noble Lords will allow me to continue. This is important. The noble Lord made an observation from a sedentary position, as they would say in another place.

Every individual prison and young offender institution, whether public or private sector, will continue to be known as Her Majesty's prison X, or Her Majesty's prison Y. Every prison officer working in public sector prisons will continue to wear the crown on their uniform and will continue to be a civil servant working to the Crown. That seems a strong endorsement of the present position,

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whatever may be the name of the organisation in which prison officers and others involved in the correctional services are employed.

It is apparent from what I have seen that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary may have been responding to a question that was put to him. There was no announcement of a change yesterday; final decisions or conclusions have not been reached.

Baroness Whitaker: My Lords, could my noble and learned friend confirm that a public prosecution service—which would be rightly named because it is after all in the interests of the citizen that the rule of law is maintained, not in the interests of the state—could prosecute the Crown, for instance, as employer?

Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, I need to think carefully about the substance of that question.

The Public Prosecution Service will continue to be the service that prosecutes on behalf of the public. At present the Crown embodies the public. The difference is in relation to the name. It will continue to prosecute all persons who can be prosecuted.

Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, does the noble and learned Lord accept that justice was originally administered by the monarch and, since then, by those in the name of the monarch? Has there been consultation with the monarchy about the proposals? Do the Government observe the conventions of consultation with the monarchy?

Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, I wish to make two points in response to the noble Lord. First, I emphasise that the proposed change is part of a wider and more important programme of reform and strengthening of the prosecution service in the interests of the public. It will help to reinforce the message that that is what the prosecution service is for. We are confident that many people do not understand the meaning of "Crown" in Crown Prosecution Service as opposed to what is meant by public prosecution service.

Secondly, in response to the noble Lord, I want to reinforce the importance of the independence of the prosecution service. None of that will change.

Lord Morris of Aberavon: My Lords, I welcome the clear statement of the Attorney-General that there is no question whatever of diluting the independence of the prosecution service. As he is head of the prosecuting service in this country, why did the Home Secretary trail the matter yesterday? Was the noble and learned Lord comfortable with that? Will there be changes with regard to the form of indictments, which are currently Regina v Defendant? Will the change need legislation?

Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, I am the Minister responsible for the Crown Prosecution Service, which I have made clear today. The Home Secretary would be the first to agree that when announcements need to be made it will be for me with the consent of the director of public prosecutions to make them.

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It is not proposed to change the form of indictment. That is no part of what is being considered. As we take the discussion forward, the need for legislation will be considered and determined before any change is implemented.

Lord Craig of Radley: My Lords, following from the previous question, will the noble and learned Lord assure the House that there is no intention to change the name of the Crown Court?

Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, none at all, but following on from the comments made by other noble Lords, it would not be for me to talk about it if there were.

Baroness Knight of Collingtree: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord said that one of the reasons for changing the title was because people would understand more readily that a Public Prosecution Service was more independent. Is he suggesting that the term "Crown Prosecution Service" had some mysterious meaning that indicated to the public that it was not independent?

Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, I did not intend to suggest that the present name indicated to members of the public a lack of independence. I was reinforcing the message about independence. My point was that some members of the public do not really understand who the Crown Prosecution Service is for. One frequently hears people in court talking about, "my barrister", but they do not fully understand what the public prosecution service—to use the term generically—is for. They do not realise that it is to prosecute on behalf of the public in the interests of the public. It is not about prosecuting on behalf of a particular victim, and it is certainly not about prosecuting on behalf of a particular individual or the Government.

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, if defendants are to appear in Crown Courts before Her Majesty's judges and, if convicted, are sent to Her Majesty's prisons, why is a change of name from Crown Prosecution Service to Public Prosecution Service even being considered?

Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, that is exactly what happens in other places, including Northern Ireland. Defendants are tried by public prosecutors on behalf of the Director of Public Prosecutions before Her Majesty's judges and sent to Her Majesty's prisons. What surely matters most of all is that, first, we should reinforce and stand behind, as I do, the independence of the prosecuting system. Secondly, we should have a prosecuting service that responds to the needs of the people whom we are there to serve. That includes recognising that we are there on behalf of the public. At a time of substantial reform, that should properly be reflected in a change of name to bring it into line with the name that its head—the Director of Public Prosecutions—has.

Lord Elton: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord has skilfully reduced the temperature, as he set out to

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do in his first—and for that reason, I suspect—very lengthy response to interventions. That will enable him and those who take a different view to look dispassionately at the discussion that we are having. He cannot fail to notice the extreme sensitivity of the proposal and the great weight of not only sentiment but also logic that attaches to the use of the Crown as a symbol of national authority and independence. That is why the Crown prosecutor is engaged in preserving the Queen's peace.

Before any decision is made, it is important to have thorough and wide consultation, including those in the Crown Prosecution Service itself, and not merely the director. Although the Statement is about the Crown Prosecution Service, as the noble and learned Lord has already acknowledged it is in the context of a highly controversial news story over the weekend that was raised by my noble friend Lord Forsyth. He was choked off during Question Time, but was allowed off the leash in the Statement to ask about the future name of Her Majesty's Prison Service.

Does the noble and learned Lord see that although the juxtaposition of those two stories may be fortuitous, to those outside they each appear to sustain the same suspicion that there is an intention to erode the apparent involvement of the Crown in the constitution.

Noble Lords: Hear, hear.

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