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Earl Howe: In the interests of time, I shall not say much except to thank everyone who has taken part in this debate, which has been extremely important. It has provided us with an opportunity to discuss a major point of principle and practice in the delivery of the public health agenda. I am prepared to concede that my noble friend's amendment is much more workable and practicable, but I make no apology for having tabled mine. It enabled Members of the Committee, as did my noble friend's amendment, to focus on this very important area. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 8 [Transfer of property and staff etc.]:
Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 33:
- Page 5, line 29, leave out "one or more schemes" and insert "one, or more than one, scheme"
The noble Earl said: This is a very simple amendment designed to address what I perceive to be a grammatical infelicity in the Bill. I beg to move.
Baroness Andrews: France has the Academie Française and we have the parliamentary counsel. There is some disagreement between those grammarians about what is grammatically correct. All I would say is that we will consider it further.
Earl Howe: I am most grateful. I am very surprised that there is any disagreement that "one schemes" constitutes good English. But, in the light of the noble Baroness's undertaking, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Andrews moved Amendment No. 35:
- Page 6, line 11, leave out paragraph (a) and insert—
The noble Baroness said: We have had problems with Greek already today; now we have problems with English. Amendments Nos. 35 and 37 would provide greater clarity, with a consistent definition of the word "enactment" throughout the Bill. The term is also used in Clause 7(3). I commend the amendments to the House for their scrupulous nature. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
Baroness Andrews moved Amendment No. 36:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
Baroness Andrews moved Amendment No. 37:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 1 [Health Protection Agency]:
Earl Howe moved Amendment No. 38:
The noble Earl said: This again is an extremely simple amendment designed to apply Occam's razor to what may be some unnecessary words in paragraph 1. I beg to move.
Baroness Andrews: I am delighted to accept the amendment.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff moved Amendment No. 39:
The noble Baroness said: I do not wish to detain the Committee for long. I am most grateful to the Minister for indicating that we might discuss this issue further outside the Committee. I should like to record that the relationship between the specialist services in Wales and the specialist services in England is so inter-related and so complementary that for the working and development between the two to occur smoothly, a great deal would be gained if we were to have an executive as well as a non-executive director from the service in Wales. I beg to move.
Baroness Andrews: I am very grateful to the noble Baroness. She will appreciate that we have not had an opportunity to discuss the amendment with the National Assembly for Wales, which we intend to do. However, I have to flag up that we have some reservations, because it would require the HPA executive members to include an employee of the equivalent public health organisation in Wales—in effect, the National Public Health Service.
Rather than go through all our reservations, perhaps I can write to the noble Baroness and explain some of the issues. I hope she will be happy with that.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: I am most grateful to the Minister. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Fowler moved Amendment No. 40:
The noble Lord said: Now that the Minister is accepting amendments and making encouraging noises, perhaps I may commend these amendments to her. They are entirely non-controversial and are intended to be helpful to the Government.
The purpose of the amendments is very simple. I should add that there is nothing personal in what I say about former or present chairmen of the Health Protection Agency. In the business world, much concentration is being placed at the moment on the issue of corporate governance. Attention is paid to the process by which non-executive directors are appointed and, in particular, to the independence of non-executive directors. Some very detailed rules have been laid down and recruitment is by nomination committees—probably set up with the help of independent head hunters. All this is designed to establish independence and independence of judgment.
That is strongly supported by the Government. The Government, Ministers and the Department of Trade and Industry lose no opportunity to say how important it is that that should be so in the private sector. My sole purpose therefore is to check whether the Government are following their own rules in that regard. Clearly, they would be open to some criticism if they were not.
Secondly, and more importantly, the case for independence is important in its own right. We do not want political placemen on the board of an important organisation of this kind, whether they are chairmen or directors. People who simply do the bidding of the Government are not independent in what will be quintessentially an independent organisation which will be judged by the quality of the independent information that it provides. So, basically, I need to be convinced by the Minister that the procedures used by the Department of Health meet that test. She may prefer simply to accept my amendments, and we can all go home happy. I beg to move.
Earl Howe: My amendments, Amendments Nos. 42 and 43, are grouped with those of my noble friend. They relate to an issue that appears to be acquiring the status of a hardy perennial in the flower bed of House of Lords Committee amendments—at least for health Bills. That is the issue of independence—in this case, the extent to which the independence of the agency may be unnecessarily compromised by the ability of the Secretary of State to appoint the chairman and an unspecified number of the non-executive directors.
These days, as the Government handsomely conceded when we debated the Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Act 2003 in the previous Session, there is seldom a need for Ministers to make such appointments themselves, especially where a perception of political bias could do considerable harm. The NHS Appointments Commission has been established precisely with a view to avoiding that trap; we warmly welcomed that step. It is inconsistent for the Welsh Assembly to be given power to delegate its appointment function to the NHS Appointments Commission but for there apparently not to be a similar power accorded to the Secretary of State—unless it is by virtue of another statute. My amendment would redress that inconsistency.
Baroness Barker: I shall speak to Amendment No. 56. I merely observe that the duel over the preceding amendments ought to be fought between parliamentary counsel and the noble Earl, with copies of Lynne Truss's Eats, Shoots and Leaves at 50 paces.
We return to familiar territory for health Bills, as the noble Earl said. Although it may not appear so, my amendment also concerns the independence of the agency. Various bodies that have commented on the Bill have had at the root of their concerns the independence of the agency. I understand the genuine difficulty for government, in that the functions of the agency are so specialist that it is sometimes difficult to apply the normal rules of open appointment to it. None the less, the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, is right: specialism cannot override due process in appointment.
The purpose of my amendment is to require an outline strategic plan to be published by the HPA. The reason for that is to establish that it is a proactive agency—albeit one that must behave from time to time in reactive fashion to emergencies. One strength of the current set-up has been the strategic way in which the existing body has worked in developing models and planning. It has been sufficiently expert at that to export them to other organisations overseas. The publication of a strategic plan would facilitate not just the agency's accountability to Parliament but its independence from the Chief Medical Officer. That would be a wise thing for the Government to do to maintain public confidence in the body, much of the work of which can never be made fully public. Therefore I believe that a strategic plan would be a valuable document for that body to produce.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: I do not wish to detain the Committee for long. I simply wish to emphasise that my amendment refers to an outline strategic plan. It uses the word "outline" because it recognises the commercial sensitivities there may be around issues that are to be developed but that there is a place for openness regarding the overall direction in which the agency would wish to go. It allows for an audit trail in the commissioning that will then occur. If there is inadequate funding for developments that the agency
"(a) any provision of or instrument made under an Act of the Scottish Parliament;"
Page 6, line 17, at end insert—
"(2) A direction under section 2(2), (3) or (4) must be given in regulations made by statutory instrument.
(3) A statutory instrument making regulations giving a direction under section 2(2)(a) or (3) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament."
Page 7, line 28, at end insert—
"( ) Enactment includes—
(a) any provision of or instrument made under an Act of the Scottish Parliament;
(b) Northern Ireland legislation."
Page 8, line 7, leave out "of the Agency"
Page 8, line 9, at end insert ", one of whom is an employee of the equivalent public health organisation in Wales"
Page 8, line 11, at end insert "and after public advertisement and subject to independent checks on political impartiality"
7.45 p.m.
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