| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, it was intended to be a kindness and the noble Baroness is undoubtedly the best alchemist in the House.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I do not know what to say to such flattery and I accept it with as much grace as I can. I hope that the noble Lord understands, in relation to the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, that it was difficult to have a discussion on those matters. He will remember
that the discussion paper was published on 25 February and so it was impossible to consider the report of the Joint Committee as it was published the next day, on 26 February, the day after the discussion paper, a draft of which was available only on 24 February. I know that many people believe that we can act with speed, but that report needed a deal of consideration.I now turn to some of the main issues that were raised by a number of noble Lords in relation to the report. The first is the distinction that appears to have been drawn between nationals and non-nationals. That is an issue that was raised not only by the noble Lord, Lord Newton, but the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Holme, as well as my noble friend Lady Hayman.
We have made clear the difficulty that that poses. The difference between the national and the non-national is particularly challenging for the very reason that we prosecute wherever possible. If there is evidence upon which we can prosecute for any offence, that is the Government's preferred course. In relation to international terrorists, there is a difficulty, which I am grateful that the House has accepted, over what one does about removal of that individual. Deportation, if possible, is the natural consequence of the fact that Part 4 powers are immigration powers. Detention is only permissible pending deportation and when no other powers are available. I hear what is being said, that there should be a change to bring the two together.
As with international terrorists who are foreign nationals, our first thought is to prosecute wherever possible. Where evidence of offence is not available, we seek to investigate and, hopefully, disrupt them in ways permissible by law. Part 4 is not available, by definition, but the question of what more we could and can do is raised by the Privy Council committee, and acknowledged in the discussion paper. The latter asks for ideas. I hope that noble Lords will see that the Government are trying to be open, are considering these matters, and will take into account the ideas that have been both raised in this debate and in the Newton report. I hope I have made that plain.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way, and I shall not interrupt again. To take one specimen example, the Newton report recommends that the Government think about using the French procedure of the juges d'instructions to get over the difficulties of the Special Immigration Appeals Commission. Is that the kind of recommendation that the Government will now take really seriously, coming back with informed recommendations by August, or has that been rejected?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I cannot say that that has been rejected. On the options currently put forward, I accept entirely the comment made by the noble Lord, Lord Holme, that the committee was not asked to put forward solutions in this regard. It
was simply asked to report, review and recommend. I have taken that very much to heart, and the Government have taken that very much to heart. But we are now in a position where what we have crafted appears to be the best possible option at the moment. We have made plain that we are willing to explore other options, other exceptions, to see whether a better way may be found. The legislation we currently have gives us a deadline in relation to November 2006 in any event. I can certainly reassure my noble friends that the sunset clause is there, it is robust and there is no question of not operating as far as the Government are concerned. I have listened very carefully to the ingenious suggestion put forward by my noble friend, Lady Hayman. I cannot make a commitment about it. Noble Lords will know that quiet reflection is always important in these situations. I commend my noble friend for her ingenuity, and we will consider her suggestion.
Baroness Hayman: My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lady Scotland. She chose her words carefully and said that there was no intention not to abide by the sunset clause. That, of course, I recognised in what I said. My assertion was that the power to remove that clause, by SI with negative procedure, was there, and that was something that we should change as a matter of principle. I am grateful for her assurance that the Government will look at that.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I should make it clear that we do not believe the way in which the provision is currently crafted is as negative as my noble friend Lady Hayman believes. The powers in Section 124 are more limited than she implies, and we consider it would be ultra vires to repeal the sunset clause. Perhaps it is not the most appropriate time, but I do assure her that we do not think the situation is quite as bad as she thinks, but we are going to look at the provision to make sure that it is as good as we think it should be.
These matters can now be looked at, and options considered. I do not say that at the end of that consideration any particular course will be predestined. We will look at it properly and openly. Even if the blanket ban on use of intercept evidence were lifted—and that possibility is currently under review—it would not be, if I may respectfully say so, a whole answer. The review should be concluded fairly shortly. I know that I have been pressed as to what "fairly shortly" is, and I cannot be more specific than that, other than to say that it is clearly understood that this matter warrants a degree of urgency.
Lord Holme of Cheltenham: I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way, since it was I who pressed her on a specific date on which the review would be concluded. "Fairly shortly" in parliamentary terms has been known to extend over several years. Does the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, think that "fairly shortly" would mean that this review by the
Government would be concluded within the six months that her right honourable friend set for consideration of alternatives?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I would certainly hope that it would be concluded within six months. I would love to say much more in terms of certainty, but I would be very disappointed if at the end of July we were not in a position to give the sort of response the noble Lord would wish. The noble Lord knows, having been in these situations before, how difficult those dates are. I certainly assure the noble Lords that it is understood that this needs to be done in shorter, rather than longer, time.
Not all the intelligence material is, of course, derived from intercept. It is rarely used in court proceedings. It does not come in coherent chunks. There will always be problems in relation to proper intelligence sources, and how we use the intelligence material in court, particularly if the criminal trial defendant needs to know the full case against him. Any new offence cannot be retrospective. Even if Part 4 were repealed, it could not prosecute those detained for the new offence. All those issues are issues with which we are going to have to deal and consider very carefully.
The noble Lord, Lord Newton, asked why other EU countries have not derogated in this way. The events of September 11 were unprecedented, as we have all agreed, in terms of the loss of life and damage to property. The UK has, as your Lordships know, previously derogated from Article 5 in respect of the threat from terrorism. We consider the threat to the UK, as the closest ally of the United States, is such as to justify the derogation. It has been accepted that each country has to make its assessment of the threat posed to itself. It may be that different countries, for different reasons, will be placed at different levels of stress. But I can assure your Lordships that we are trying to establish a framework of agreement with potential destination countries of the kind suggested in paragraphs 254 to 257 of the Newton report. The purpose of the agreement is to protect the individuals who may be adversely affected and the human rights of individuals following their departure from the United Kingdom.
Many of those matters were echoed also by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, and I hope he will take my answers as answers to him, too. He raised one specific issue in relation to recruitment of staff for the security services, and we take very seriously indeed the comments he made regarding the historical arrangements. I can reassure the noble Lord that the security service has been planning the expansion for some time. The recruitment plan is well in hand and will not be affected by the announcements that we have made in relation to it.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Browne-Wilkinson, commented on Part 3 of the Act, which allows the Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise to make disclosures for the purposes of criminal investigation. The Government believe that this is necessary in the context of these bodies because of the statutory restrictions on what they can disclose. Other departments and police forces can disclose, where
information assists in the detention of serious crimes such as murder, sex offences and the like. It is right that Part 3 allows the Inland Revenue to disclose for Section 19(2) purposes, which include crime.
Your Lordships will know of the serious issues of a Soham-type nature—
Next Section
Back to Table of Contents
Lords Hansard Home Page