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Lord Whitty: My Lords, it is clear from the cover note and from what Mr Dring has said that he wanted his personal statement to go to the inquiry in some form. The legal advice was that it could be prejudicial to the trial of what almost certainly was the starting point of foot and mouth and therefore to any judgment that that court made. In a sense, that was understandable legal advice. Officials acted on that advice. It is clear that that was the process.
What is now clear is that Dr Anderson should have received that. He would not have put it in the public domain. Had Ministers been informed of that decision based on genuine legal advice, they would have taken a different decision. It is important that Dr Anderson should have been able to make his own judgment on what was in Mr Dring's letter. However, it is also important that, now that Dr Anderson has seen the letter, he says that it would not have altered the terms of his recommendation from the inquiry.
Lord Rotherwick: My Lords, was Dr Anderson aware that he was not receiving this information? Is there any other information that he did not receive that he should have received?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, clearly, Dr Anderson was not aware that that information existed. Of course, he was aware of Mr Dring's involvement and he had sight
of Mr Dring's contemporaneous notes of his visit to the Waugh farm. Therefore, he was not entirely without information on Mr Dring's views and what he had done.As to other information, there was some information that was summarised because it was based on confidential material. However, as far as I can ascertain, it does not appear to be the case that other material was withheld for the same reason or for any other reason. However, I shall qualify that. Until two or three weeks ago I was not aware of Mr Dring's letter either. Nevertheless, they were rather special circumstances which related to what were probably the most important legal proceedings arising from the foot and mouth epidemic.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, does the noble Lord believe that the failure to submit this evidence to Dr Anderson had any effect on the Government's decision to ban swill feeding without compensation for a very small number of pig swill feeders? They were obeying the law by doing exactly what they were told and cooking the swill at the right temperature. They had never created any problems. Does the noble Lord think it is fair that these people should not be compensated?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, at the time the Government were sensible to take the decision to ban swill feed. Indeed, that action has in many respects now been followed by Europe as a whole in the light of the clear evidence that swill feed could have contributed towards or brought the diseased meat into that particular pig farm. In such circumstances it would not be normal practice to compensate because that was a measure was taken for public health or animal health purposes.
Viscount Bledisloe: My Lords, what right or power does some official in Defra have to suppress a communication from Mr Dring to Dr Anderson without the permission or the knowledge either of the author of the document or the person to whom it was addressed?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, officials in Defra and elsewhere are encouraged to take legal advice on how they should proceed in relation to any documentation provided which makes reference to an ongoing legal case. In normal circumstances that would be a sensible and orderly decision, and we would expect officials to take note of that legal advice. Because of the wider significance here, it may be that it should have been referred upwards to senior officials and Ministers, but I would not suggest that officials were acting out of order. They acted in relation to normal instructions. As Members of the House would expect, officials are encouraged to follow legal advice.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, does not the noble Lord agree that it is regrettable that that decision was taken and that neither officials at Defra nor the
Minister were informed? Members of the House are deeply concerned about the spread of disease. The one thing that we have tried to bring into being is an animal health Bill that in the future would prevent or restrict the spread of disease very quickly. What steps will the Minister take to ensure that these disgraceful events do not happen again?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I have said that I regret that the letter did not go to Dr Anderson. However, I do not think that it has had any bearing on Dr Anderson's decision. He has made that clear himself. While he feels that he should have seen the letter, he has also said that it would not have changed his decision and recommendations.
Turning to the efficacy of the recommendations, those matters have been debated at considerable length both here and elsewhere. I believe that what has been put in place, along with the contingency plan for dealing with any future outbreak of foot and mouth or similar disease, will prove effective. However, vigilance is required on the part of farmers as well as on the part of enforcers and veterinary advisers.
Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior: My Lords, regrettable as this incident might be, does not the Minister agree that one of the major problems at the time of the outbreak of food and mouth disease was the very substantial reduction in manpower in the State Veterinary Service? That put everyone under a great deal of pressure. Without wishing to excuse the situation, can the Minister provide some evidence that the shortage of staff in the State Veterinary Service will be attended to?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, as the Government's evidence to the Anderson inquiry made clear, the changes made to the manning levels of the State Veterinary Service have not been as drastic as is sometimes alleged in terms of farm visits, although it is true that there have been some shortages. Indeed, Mr Dring's statement refers to certain constraints he faced because of staff shortages. We believe that the State Veterinary Service is staffed at the appropriate level to deal with today's problems, but we also need to call on private vets should this or a similar disease break out again. That is very much a part of our contingency plans for dealing with any future emergencies.
Business of the House: Debates this Day
3.14 p.m.
The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Amos): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the debate on the Motion in the name of the Lord King of Bridgwater set down for today shall be limited to three hours and that in the name of the Lord Fowler to two hours.—(Baroness Amos.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Business
Lord Grocott: My Lords, I need to relay a short item of business to the House and I am sure that noble Lords will be patient and understanding. The next debate is a very important one on defence. The Minister, my noble friend Lord Bach, was scheduled to be back in the House in good time for the debate. Today he has been visiting the Royal Navy at Faslane. His plane has been delayed. Although I keep looking at the door, it is expected that we shall be able to start the debate in 20 minutes' time, at 3.35 p.m.
Obviously it would be inappropriate to start the debate when the Minister is not in his place. This has been discussed in the usual channels, but more particularly with the noble Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater. Everyone has been most understanding. For the first time in my life I have watched Question Time hoping desperately that the questions would be longer. However, in the circumstances, the sensible action is to adjourn the House.
Lord Selsdon: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may ask him one question. As he has said that this is an important debate, why are so few Members on the Government Benches speaking in it?
Lord Grocott: My Lords, the answer is that Members on these Benches are in total support of the Government. In particular, my noble friend Lord Bach will be adequately equipped to deal with any queries that may arise. I beg to move that the House do now adjourn until 3.35 p.m.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
[The Sitting was suspended from 3.15 to 3.35 p.m.]
Defence
Lord King of Bridgwater rose to call attention to defence policy, including the additional challenges posed by terrorism; and to move for Papers.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in preparing for this debate, I took account of the events that occurred since we knew that we would have this debate. I remind your Lordships: Madrid, the atrocity; the assassination of a Government Minister in Herat in Afghanistan; the intensive fighting in Waziristan; the outbreak of attempted ethnic cleansing, perhaps, again in Kosovo; the assassination of Sheikh Yassin; the civil riots and petrol bombing in Basra; and the seemingly continuous backdrop of murder of American soldiers and Iraqi police in Baghdad and surrounding areas.
I welcome the Minister, understanding that he has had an extremely difficult journey and very much appreciating the efforts that he will have made. It is not my peroration but merely my introduction that he has missed.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Bach): My Lords, perhaps I may take this opportunity to apologise to all Members
of the House for not being in my place at 3.15 p.m. I think that the House knows that I was fulfilling a long-standing engagement with the Royal Navy on the west coast of Scotland. It would have been quite wrong for me not to have gone there. The plane back was delayed. If it had not been, I would have been in my place at 3.15 p.m. I of course apologise to the House, and especially to the noble Lord, Lord King, for not having been in my place.
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