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Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I shall not trespass too much on the rules at Third Reading, but I should say that I looked at that consultation document. A fleeting, passing reference was made to this proposal. As it was so fleeting and passing, I sought assiduously to find out what the major organisations—I named them on the previous occasion—felt about it. However, at this point I do not have the evidence to hand to allow me properly to accept that this proposal should go forward. I wish to test the opinion of the House on whether to leave out Clause 18.

2.2 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 11) shall be agreed to?

*Their Lordships divided: Contents, 115; Not-Contents, 103.

Division No. 4


Addington, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Belstead, L.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carrington, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dundee, E.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Greaves, L.
Greenway, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B. [Teller]
Hayhoe, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hooson, L.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Laird, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Newby, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Renton, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stern, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Ullswater, V.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.


Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Blackstone, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Boothroyd, B.
Bragg, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dixon, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fitt, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Stallard, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L. *[See col. 866]

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

25 Mar 2004 : Column 840

2.12 p.m.

Clause 19 [Powers of court on finding of insanity or unfitness to plead etc]:

[Amendment No. 12 not moved.]

Clause 20 [Appeal against order made on finding of insanity or unfitness to plead etc]:

[Amendment No. 13 not moved.]

Viscount Bridgeman moved Amendment No. 14:

    After Clause 25, insert the following new clause—

(1) Section 17 of the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999 (c. 23) (witnesses eligible for assistance on grounds of fear or distress about testifying) is amended as follows.
(2) After subsection (4) insert—
"(4A) Where the complainant in respect of proceedings relating to any form of molestation, including violence, involving the complainant, a cohabitant, a relevant child or associated persons, is a witness in such proceedings, the witness is eligible for assistance in relation to those proceedings by virtue of this subsection unless the witness has informed the court of the witness's wish not to be so eligible by virtue of this subsection.
(4B) For the purposes of this subsection, "cohabitant", "relevant child" and "associated persons" mean a person as defined by section 62 of the Family Law Act 1996 (c. 27) (meaning of "cohabitants", "relevant child" and "associated person") as amended by sections 2 and 3 of this Act.""

The noble Viscount said: My Lords, Amendment No. 14 stands in my name and in the names of my noble friend Lady Anelay, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. May I first thank the Minister for agreeing to meet Victim Support, as we suggested, after the Report stage?

25 Mar 2004 : Column 841

This is the same amendment as the one we moved on Report, when I gave notice to the Minister that we would not divide the House at that stage. The point at issue remains—that is, the concept that one size does not fit all, as the Minister put it so succinctly at earlier stages of the Bill. As an example, the Minister painted the scenario of a complainant who, in effect, wants maximum publicity by saying,

    "'I am going to stand up for myself, and I am not going to allow you to see that you have obliged me to take special measures to hide from you'".—[Official Report, 15/3/04; col. 32.]

The Minister quite rightly said that some cases go one way and some go the other.

But, in my amendment, the proposed new subsection (4A) expressly provides for the witness to opt out of the right to special measures,

    "unless the witness has informed the court of the witness's wish not to be so eligible by virtue of this subsection".

This exactly follows the wording of Section 17(4) of the existing Act, which relates to sexual offences. So the victims will be able to opt out of the special measures provided for under our amendment.

The Minister reminded us on Report that as the Bill now stands the victims have the right to special measures under Sections 16 and 17 of the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act, but the difference between us remains. The statutes at present give the protection at the discretion of the court; our amendment gives it as an absolute right. At the risk of repeating what I said on Report, we think this is of fundamental psychological importance to the witness. If the provision draws in some trivial cases which are not in themselves deserving of special measures, so be it. The opt-out provision to which I have referred is there.

I hope that the Minister will, at this late stage of the Bill's passage through your Lordships' House, be able to agree what we on these Benches regard as a fundamentally important modification of the Bill. I beg to move.

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