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Lord Davies of Coity: My Lords, like the noble Baroness opposite, I have not been in the House all that long. I know that I am a Member of Parliament, but, perhaps differently from her, I accept that I am a
Member of Parliament with very limited powers. My noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours made a case. It may have been a touch abrasive for noble Lords opposite, but I think he was saying that this House has to recognise its constitutional responsibilities. I am not going to talk about the substantive element of the amendment. I shall talk about the fact that we, not only in word, but in deed, must recognise and acknowledge the supremacy of an elected House, and that we have a stewardship which is answerable to the people.The Government have taken their decision and at some stage this House must recognise that the political decision has been taken. It has been taken not by the Electoral Commission but by the Government. It is not a conscience issue; it is not a moral issue; it is a political issue. This House does scrutinise and revise but we must reach a stage when we acknowledge in deed the supremacy of the elected Government.
Earl Russell: My Lords, will the noble Lord read the Acts of 1911 and 1949—one from our party and one from his? He is saying a good deal more than is said by those Acts.
Lord Davies of Coity: My Lords, I am certainly not given to reading the historical circumstances which have just been described by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, but I am concerned with practical politics and with the British people being represented by elected Members of Parliament.
If we want a future and if we want to be able to advise the government of the day—not only a Labour government but perhaps a Conservative government again one day—we have to recognise our limitations. As far as I am concerned, we should now support the Government's wish—because they are the elected body.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, I had always understood that as well as being a revising Chamber, we have a duty to cause the Commons to stop and think again. I had understood that that was an accepted procedure at least twice. The third time we have to accept the inevitable, but before that, we have not only a right but a duty to delay and to cause them to think again.
3.15 p.m.
Lord Filkin: My Lords, perhaps I may say a few words in response to the points raised in this debate. I will seek to keep them succinct, because I am not optimistic that I will necessarily turn the debate on what I say.
I acknowledge that the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, opened his speech by signalling that this was an attempt to move towards the position of the Government and the Commons. What I shall now say does not detract from that in any way. I am slightly confused about the stance of the opposition party on this issue, because the honourable Member for Somerton and Frome, David Heath, yesterday made clear in the other place that if we had been moving to
universal postal ballots at this point he would perhaps have supported that. I refer to col. 966 of the Commons Official Report. He set out why he took that view. That was a bold statement but it is considerably at variance with the nicety of debate that we are having here about whether four is too many, but three is enough. In another place, the Liberal Democrat Front Bench was clearly saying that a universal postal ballot in these elections would be worth having a go. Be that as it may.The noble Lord, Lord Rennard, also said—this is not the first occasion on which it has been mentioned—that potentially these issues may be rooted in evil party political hopes and fears. All I would say on that is that I have asked officials for what evidence there is that postal balloting will affect one party to the advantage of another, and they have failed to provide me with any. There is much party political rhetoric and excitement among political activists on this point, but there is not much evidence to support it either way.
There is one further point that I should bring to the attention of the House, because it matters to all of us. It is clear that the delay consequent on the Commons and the Lords not being able to agree damages the process and the prospects of these elections. In a worrying way, it damages them whether or not they are carried out by postal ballots or by the conventional electoral mechanisms. I would not make such a statement without having evidence for it, because that would risk alarming the House. I have such evidence from officials who have had discussions with returning officers. These matters are never black and white. One never moves from a position in which everything is fine to the following day when suddenly everything is disastrous. It is simply that the risk rises as the delay continues.
I was absolutely clear when I said that I share the expression of respect for the revising and scrutinising function of the House. I believe that the House is absolutely right, even when it is against the Government, to mark the issues that concern it and to bring them to the attention of the Commons. But we have done that three times on this issue, and three times the Commons have said, "We disagree. This is our view". Therefore, that is why, without making more of it than one should, we should reflect on this issue at this stage over and above the merits of the issue. As your Lordships will know from what I have said on several occasions, for the reasons that we have set out, I believe that there are sounds merits in terms of moving to four.
With regard to the Deputy Prime Minister's letter to Sam Younger, it is available for inspection in the Library of the House.
The issues with regard to the north west have always been essentially about whether elections could be carried out effectively. The view of the Government and of the regional returning officers is that elections can be carried out there successfully.
Finally, if I understood her correctly, the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, spoke about disconnecting the elector from the ballot paper and from the ballot
box. We are experimenting with moving on from the traditional way of voting. We seek to do so for a good reason, which would benefit all parties and democracy. I will repeat the figures. If, as I believe we should, we pilot all-postal ballots in the four regions in the June European and local elections, 2 million more people will vote in those elections. We should take note of that, because I believe that that is earnestly desired by anyone who holds democracy in this country to be important. For all those reasons, therefore, I urge the House to support the position of the Commons on this issue.
Lord Rennard: My Lords, we could and perhaps should have had a wholly different debate about the conduct of the European elections, perhaps with an all-postal ballot system being tried across the entire country in the European elections. However, the Government's proposal was to have the local elections postponed from May until June to coincide with those elections. Because in those local elections a handful of votes in a handful of wards may be determined by different voting mechanisms, it is inappropriate to suggest that we should have such widespread all-postal voting this time round. That view is entirely consistent with what I and my friend in the other place, Mr David Heath, have argued; namely, that we could perhaps have had all-postal voting for the whole of Europe. However, we cannot have the Government, for their own interests in those important European and local elections, picking and choosing which regions should have all-postal voting.
If I may paraphrase the Minister's arguments throughout the debate—I am sure that he will correct me if I am wrong—he has told us repeatedly that although the Electoral Commission in its report dated 8 December originally recognised that only two regions were suitable for all-postal balloting, it was open to the Government to hold further discussions to discover whether or not the barriers suggested by the Electoral Commission could be overcome. If that is the case, I would refer noble Lords to the letter from the Electoral Commission dated 23 March 2004, in which it is said:
- "We note that the electoral administrators in Yorkshire and the Humber, the next in ranking, are now more positive about running pilots than when we discussed them at the end of last year. The considerations as set out in our December report regarding the North West have not changed".
The Government's case has been based on whether the considerations taken by the Electoral Commission in December could change. The independent Electoral Commission now says that, in its view, those considerations, based on fears of fraud, lack of acceptance and logical difficulties, have not changed. I therefore believe that it would not be right for the Government to try to proceed with all-postal pilots in the north west.
Throughout these debates, and today, the Minister has repeatedly used the phrase, "The Minister, the Government and the other place", as though three
separate bodies were arguing for this measure. In fact, only one body is arguing for it, that being the Labour Party—
Lord Hoyle: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for giving way. What he says about the commission's view is quite correct. However, the electoral returning officers, with the exception of two who were guided by their authorities, decided in October that they were in favour of postal balloting in the north west, and they fully expected the Electoral Commission to endorse that.
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