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Lord Rennard: My Lords, the independent Electoral Commission's report of 8 December reported that there was widespread opposition among returning officers in many parts of the north west to the idea of all-postal balloting, and the independent commission said that it did not want that. The Government then said, "Things have changed and now they do want it". Yesterday we had the categoric word of the chairman of the independent Electoral Commission that nothing had changed since the publication of its report on 8 December. It seems to me that one party is arguing for this proposal and that every other party and this House and the independent commission are in favour of the other side of the argument. When there is an issue of dispute between the parties and the two Houses, it seems to me logical to allow the view of the independent Electoral Commission to prevail. Its very clear view is that perhaps to—

Lord Filkin: My Lords, on that point, the Electoral Commissioner himself—and I respect him for the clarity with which he expressed the constitutional position—was explicitly clear that the decision as to which regions should be piloted was not for him. Although he would give his opinion, it was for Parliament to decide.

Noble Lords: Hear, hear!

Lord Rennard: My Lords, the vote must indeed be taken by Parliament, but it seems that Parliament cannot decide and that the parties cannot agree between themselves. When between the two Houses Parliament cannot decide, when the parties cannot agree on the basis of consensus, and when not a single Member of Parliament of another party, other than the Labour Party in another place, has supported this proposal—

Lord Davies of Coity: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for giving way. When he says that Parliament cannot agree, he seems to be saying that the House of Lords has the same level of supremacy as the House of Commons. I remind noble Lords opposite that Lloyd George once did something to ensure that the Government had supremacy in the Lords.

Lord Rennard: My Lords, there must be few occasions on which an unelected Chamber may challenge an elected one, but things to do with

25 Mar 2004 : Column 863

electoral mechanisms must be those sorts of things; for example, if a government with a majority in the other place decided that we should not have an election within five years of the last one but that we should wait six, seven or eight years.

When governments decide to use their majority in another place on electoral issues, perhaps we should think more carefully about whether one party with a majority in one place should change our electoral rules or whether we should do what we said we would do four years ago. When we established the Electoral Commission, we established a body to avoid such arguments between the parties. That is what I think we should now be doing.

Earl Russell: My Lords, it might help my noble friend if I pointed out to noble Lords opposite that Parliament took the decision to put off a general election in June 1940. I have read the debate on it in this House, and the House agreed that as it could stop it at any moment it liked, it did not therefore need to.

Lord Rennard: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that intervention and, as ever, helpful historical lesson.

In conclusion, the issue of whether there should be three postal pilots has not yet been put to the other place. I believe that it should be put as a fair and honourable compromise. On that basis, I would like to test the opinion of the House.

3.30 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1F) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 159; Not-Contents, 122.

Division No. 5

CONTENTS
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blatch, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brigstocke, B.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carrington, L.
Chalfont, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Deedes, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elton, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Ferrers, E.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Greaves, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Quinton, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L. [Teller]
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Sandberg, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.

NOT-CONTENTS
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Blackstone, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Bragg, L.
Bramall, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dearing, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fitt, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Greengross, B.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tanlaw, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

25 Mar 2004 : Column 865

Motion, as amended, agreed to.

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