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Lord Chorley: My Lords, I was glad to add my name to my noble friend's amendment, especially as I was unable to be present on the earlier occasion to which he referred. The central point is that throughout this Bill national parks are treated as just another authority. They are not just another authority. I tried to emphasise that at Second Reading.

National parks are national and have their own legislation; notably, the 1949 Act and the 1995 Act. My noble friend quoted at Report stage and again today from Section 62 of the 1995 Act, in particular subsection (2). I shall not go over that again.

Time and again governments—I say governments because this has happened over the years—and other agencies make statements which suggest that they are barely aware of, or would like to ignore, Section 62. The 2002 Defra review of national parks in England felt constrained to make the same point; namely, that Section 62 needed to be more widely publicised and that there should be more effective monitoring to ensure compliance with the statute.

My noble friend chided Mr Alun Michael. Equally, he could have chided the Planning Minister over PPS7—the draft paper on sustainable development in rural areas. On the whole, that is a good document, but it completely ignores Section 62, especially subsection (2). I shall go no further into that issue because my noble friend did so in some detail.

This is a planning Bill. I suggest that it is necessary to remind planners and others of Section 62. It is important to ensure that national park purposes are properly integrated into the land use planning system. This is not a criticism of just this Government. I could go on at some length about some of the dubious planning decisions made over the years, particularly before the 1995 Act.

I shall confine myself to one anecdote that is historical but relevant today. In the late 1940s, shortly after the passing of the 1947 planning Act, the National Trust consulted Mr Hugh Dalton. It wondered whether it needed to acquire any more land since landscapes were now capable of being protected by statute. Mr Dalton—well known as a great outdoor man and a Chancellor of the Exchequer—is alleged to have replied in the immortal words:

"Put not your trust in Princes and still less in Ministers of the Crown. Go for acquisition and inalienability".

Luckily, the National Trust followed those wise words.

That is why we need this amendment. That is why my noble friend has wisely included AONBs. If we forget about national parks, we are even more likely to forget about those Cinderellas of landscape, notwithstanding that by statute they are deemed to be of equal landscape quality to national parks.

I therefore hope that the Minister will agree to this modest amendment. In doing so, perhaps he will also commit the Government to fleshing out or buttressing

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it by providing guidance in the proposed PPS11 on regional planning bodies and PPS12 on strategic and local planning authorities. I support the amendment.

Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I hope that what I shall say will not be taken as unsympathetic to noble Lords who have spoken. Their concerns are very much to the point. We shall come to a debate on sustainability. To take those words a little further, I recognise the importance of AONBs and national parks as part of our country that we need to sustain. Certainly, on these Benches, we recognise that.

However, I have some difficulty with the amendment. As regards legislation, above all, Ministers of the Crown should comply with it, as should planning authorities. But saying that again does not make the original legislation any stronger. Indeed, it may weaken it. The amendment starts with the words, "In all ordinary circumstances". The two sections that are referred to do not have that sort of exception within them, which seems to beg some questions. I would prefer to rely on, if you like, the parent legislation. If that legislation is not good enough, it ought to be changed rather than adopting a "let's say it louder, let's say it again" approach.

I hope that the Minister can reassure noble Lords on the points that have been raised because they are of concern.

Lord Marlesford: My Lords, I rise to speak in support of the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, because it covers perhaps one of the most important aspects of the whole of the conservation of England, enshrined as part of it is in the 1949 Act, one of the great achievements of the post-war Labour government. The noble Lord, Lord Chorley, was so right to quote Hugh Dalton. I do not feel confident, although not so much in the case of the present Government. We all read the piece in the Times by Simon Jenkins, which I thought was rather unfair about the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. On amendment after amendment he has shown that, on the whole, his heart is in the right place.

However, the article was certainly not unfair about what the Government are trying to do. I think that the time has come to reinforce the earlier legislation. Unless the Minister can use words that would enable Hansard to be used in place of legislation in a court hearing, I shall certainly support the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, if he chooses to seek the opinion of the House.

This is a very important issue. The National Trust has had to continue to acquire land such as, for example, coastal land in Cornwall. Had it not been acquired, we would not have the coastline we have today. Anything which threatens or appears to threaten the integrity of the most designated areas—national parks and AONBs—such as the speeches by the Minister quoted by the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, must set alarm bells ringing loudly in those of us who see it as part of our wish in life to protect our countryside, which is under great pressure.

Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, I rise to express our support for the thrust of this amendment. We hope that the Minister will be able to give some assurances to the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, in his response.

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4.15 p.m.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I certainly hope that I can do so. The noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, just referred to what I thought was a quite ignorant and mischievous piece in the Times yesterday, notwithstanding that I took personal offence at the description of myself as the,

"ermined friend of the construction industry".

The article was written in ignorance by someone who has never read the updated communities plan; has not read any of the debates; has not read our further annual report and has not paid even scant attention to anything either I or my right honourable friend have said about protecting the countryside, higher densities and other matters. Therefore the article is based on ignorance and is not worthy of a response.

This amendment is worthy of a response and I hope that I shall be able to satisfy all noble Lords who have spoken. The underlying thrust of the amendment is to ensure that the statutory protection already in place is not undermined by anything in this Bill. I hope that I will be able to show that it is not.

I shall set out briefly the existing legislation and add a few remarks. Section 62 of the Environment Act 1995 requires relevant authorities, when exercising their functions, to have regard to the purposes of national parks as defined in Section 61. These are, first,

"of conserving and enhancing the natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heritage of the areas",

and, secondly,

"of promoting opportunities for the understanding and enjoyment of the special qualities of those areas by the public".

I declare an interest here because with my stick, boots and wet weather gear I use those areas, in particular the Lake District.

If it appears that there is a conflict between those two purposes, Section 62 requires relevant authorities to attach greater weight to the conservation and enhancement of,

"the natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heritage".

Section 85 of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 requires relevant authorities when exercising their functions to,

"have regard to the purpose of conserving and enhancing the natural beauty of the area of outstanding natural beauty".

Section 87 makes it clear that an area of outstanding natural beauty conservation board must attach greater weight to,

"the purpose of conserving and enhancing the natural beauty of the area of outstanding natural beauty",

if it appears that there is a conflict between this and,

"the purpose of increasing the understanding and enjoyment by the public of the . . . area".

That is the law. We would argue that nothing in the Bill, or anything that has been said, would change that.

I was surprised by the reference to my right honourable friend Alun Michael. I can assure the noble Lord that if Alun had said anything, he would certainly send a letter to follow it up. He is a great letter

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writer. I do not accept the criticism that this is legislation by mouth. The fact is, nothing that is said or written by a Minister would change those parts of the statute—the law—that I have just mentioned. I can also assure the House that the regional planning bodies will have regard to the statutory purposes of national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty in preparing draft revisions of their regional spatial strategies. Local planning authorities are specifically given this duty in the Acts referred to in the original speeches. As I have made clear to the noble Lord previously, the Government attach great weight to the preservation of the landscape in national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty. The draft of new planning policy statement 7 on sustainable development in rural areas make this clear.

I should add that officials of the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister have had positive discussions with national park representatives about their role under the new planning arrangements. Indeed, we will strengthen the references to national parks in the final version of planning policy statement 11. We are also exploring with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether there is scope for producing a joint best practice guidance note on the involvement of national park authorities in regional spatial strategy reviews and revisions.

I wish to make progress and so, in case I am asked why we do not extend the good practice to areas of outstanding natural beauty, I should indicate that we shall consider the issue. But the national parks are local planning authorities in their own right and therefore, for that reason, they are particularly critical to the delivery of the regional spatial strategies.

I hope that I have said enough to convince the House that we are serious in our intent not to undermine the existing statutory framework governing the national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty. I would not be a party to it.

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