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Lord Avebury: My Lords, my noble friend received the letter, although I did not. The sentence that he mentions has been corrected; it says "committee".
Lord Rooker: My Lords, then I withdraw everything that I have just said. I asked for a copy of the letter that I had sent to noble Lords; that is the one that I was given. I am not blaming anybody, but I was given the wrong letter. As a result, I am not coming armed with all the letters that I have written. On that basis, I think that I have given a brilliant reply to the amendment.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, I did not receive the letter and have only just been handed it by my noble friend, but I can see that the Minister's reply to the Joint Committee is six pages long. It would be impossible for me to make any sensible comments about the contents. We are in some difficulty here. The Joint Committee complained that it was given inadequate time to look at the provisions introduced at the very last minute on Report. It exerted itself to produce a thorough report the day before we met, and the Minister's reply to the committee was sent on 24 March and has just been handed to one or two noble Lords now.
The same applies to the letter to Sarah Spencer. I have not seen a copy of that letter, so it would be useless for me to comment on the adequacy or otherwise of the response to the Commission for Racial Equality. All that I can say is that, whatever Sarah Spencer has said to the ODPM, it was not the commission's final word because it told me this morning that it still awaited legal advice on the lawfulness of the proposals.
Perhaps I could sweeten my complaints by saying that I am grateful to the noble Lord for the further assurance that he gave today that the regulations would not come into effect until adequate provision was made to ensure that persons living in caravans, whether Gypsies or others, are not displaced from the homes that they occupy, which, to them, are just as important as the homes already dealt with under the Bill. I would have much preferred it if we could have had proper time to consider all the matters.
I have no alternative at this late stage but to withdraw the amendment, but I hope that when the regulations finally appear, they will be fully informed by the further comments that I expect that the Commission for Racial Equality will make. The Traveller Law Reform Group has also expressed great concern not only about the effect of stop notices under this Bill, but at the possibility of increased use of stop notices under the parent Act. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
7.45 p.m.
Lord Rooker moved Amendment No. 50:
- Page 39, line 15, leave out from "certificate" to end of line 16 and insert "in respect of the activity is issued under section 191 or granted under that section by virtue of section 195"
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is in response to points made during the Report stage of the Bill. The amendment seeks to amend the new provisions for the temporary stop notice compensation by allowing compensation to be paid in cases where lawful development certificates have been issued not only by the local planning authority, but by the Secretary of State. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Lucas moved Amendment No. 52:
- Page 40, line 16, after "exceed" insert "by more than a specified percentage"
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is rather ungrateful of me, since at the last stage the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, was very kind in producing something that went nine tenths of the way to what I want, and here I am trying to get some more. As I have said before in this House, all the developers that I have spoken to say that planning fees are far too low, they would much rather that they were much higher, and they got a really good service out of local authorities.
To my mind, for that to happen, a local authority has to be sure, in these straitened days, that the planning service will not lose money for it. One of the earliest things that I learnt about consumer law is that if you specify 500 grams on a tin of beans, you have to put 505 grams in, to make sure that you never make a mistake. If we set the law that a local authority can never make a profit on its planning division, the only way that it can do that is by always making a loss. That seems to be the wrong way round. I would like there to be a small margin, just 5 to 10 per cent, something like that, so that the local authority can be sure that this will not be a loss-making division, and that it will recoup the money it spends on planning, and the money that it spends on giving a good service. I beg to move.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I am almost beginning to wish that I had my previous reincarnation as a politician. Having listened to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, on this, I would be rubbing my hands with glee if that were the case. I have a deal of sympathy with what he is saying. I suspect that local authorities will find ways to achieve his objective.
Our view is that there is no necessity to prescribe further the powers of authorities in the manner in which the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has suggested. We are committed to the policy that fees charged should not be in excess of the functions provided. The long-standing policy of this Administration, and the previous Administration, has been to set fees at a cost recovery level to ensure against local taxation. While this means that authorities may make a loss in one year, prescribed function is taken on a year-on-year
basis. I suspect that year-on-year the local authority will be able to raise fees in such a way as to ensure that they do not make a loss and that they more than cover, or at least cover, their costs.The provision that we have outlined in Clause 53 is in line with Section 93 of the Local Government Act 2003, which we all enjoyed debating at length last Session. What the noble Lord is after is achievable, probably not in a single year of accounting, but over time. The full detail of the fee system will be subject to consultation with stakeholders, and that should be completed this summer. No doubt some of the issues raised by the noble Lord during debates on fees will surface then. My notes say that your Lordships will therefore have further opportunity to debate any scheme of fees and charges that we propose. I therefore hope that the noble Lord is satisfied with that and feels able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Lucas: No, my Lords. He is not satisfied but he is resigned to it. It is extraordinary. On looking at previous debates that we have had over the past few months in this House, we have been conscious of how close to the limit council tax has been. We have talked about different ways of raising money for local authorities. Here is a group of people who want to contribute money to local authorities to enable them to have more money to spend, but they are being denied the chance to give it to them.
At the same time, in the next week or two, we shall debate the Traffic Management Bill, which proposes an additional tax for local authorities to allow them to make a profit out of those who want to provide services to the rest of us so that they will get all their road mending done at the expense of the gas, electricity and telephone companies.
We are doing it. We need to do it. We know we need to do it. We are doing it in other aspects. But here, where we have a willing group of taxpayers—people who want to be taxed—we will not let them pay. That seems extraordinary. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 58 [Effect of correction]:
Lord Rooker moved Amendment No. 53:
- Page 42, line 36, leave out from "in" to end of line and insert—
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 53 and 54 are purely technical amendments which rectify an oversight in drafting. They correct the position so that Clause 58 will apply also to decisions issued under Section 289 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Rooker moved Amendment No. 54:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 65 [Intervention by Assembly]:
Lord Rooker moved Amendments Nos. 55 to 57:
"(a) paragraph (a) of section 59(4) below, or
(b) paragraph (b) of that section, if it is a decision mentioned in section 177 of the principal Act (grant or modification of planning permission on appeal against enforcement notice)."
Page 42, line 36, at end insert—
"( ) Section 289 of the principal Act (appeals to the High Court relating to enforcement notices and notices under section 207 of that Act) applies to the correction notice as if it were a decision of the Secretary of State mentioned in—
(a) subsection (1) of that section, if the decision document in respect of which the correction notice is given records a decision mentioned in paragraph (b) of section 59(4) below (not being a decision mentioned in section 177 of the principal Act), or
(b) subsection (2) of that section, if the decision document in respect of which the correction notice is given records a decision mentioned in paragraph (c) of section 59(4) below."
Page 47, line 19, after "unsatisfactory" insert "—
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