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Lord Filkin: My Lords, I am very sorry to interrupt but I have to correct a misinterpretation of what I said, as I did in the previous debate. I made it absolutely clear last time that I had never used the argument that the regions were a test bed for regional referendums, and explained that I did not think that a sound reason, yet the same accusation is being made of me. I find that surprising. What I said and said again today was that, while there were other good reasons, there was a further reason of maintaining the consistency of the same type of election. That is a completely different argument from that of a test bed.

3.45 p.m.

Baroness Hanham: My Lords, we are debating semantics. The Minister said earlier, quite rightly, that three of the four regions would be the regional assembly regions. That is precisely what they are, in terms. The election would be a test bed for those referendums, however he puts it. The whole question of the regional assemblies takes the matter out of the remit of the Minister and puts it into the hands of the Deputy Prime Minister, who has taken an active interest from another place. We therefore need to ask who is running the show.

We are very conscious that we are putting great pressure on the Government to come to a decision—a decision that represents their own initial thoughts. Despite what we have heard from time to time from Labour Peers, that is what this House should be able to do—to say to the Government, "Think again. This is where you started. This is where you should end". The advice from the Government on all sides goes against the line that they propose to take.

The noble Lord, Lord Rennard, put forward powerful arguments about both the Government doing that and the precedents set in this House in the past. My strong recommendation to my colleagues is to support the amendment.

Lord King of Bridgwater: My Lords, I shall speak very briefly. I have not spoken until now, because I hoped that there would be agreement on the issue. I tell the Minister how deeply disappointed I am that it has come back yet again after the attempts made in this House to reach a compromise. If I understood him he said that there was no point of principle in the matter, but there is a deep point of principle. I was elected to the other place in the backwash of the events that

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surrounded the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan, and the attempt to repudiate the parliamentary Boundary Commission report at that time.

The lesson learnt from that was that, at all times if possible, any change in electoral practice should be by all-party agreement. I remember the occasions on which, when issues arose, it was agreed that they would be put to a Speaker's Conference in which all parties would be represented, because all parties recognised the overwhelming desirability of there being all-party agreement in matters of such sensitivity. The Minister will be unable to persuade other parties in this House that there is not political consideration in the proposal that he put forward. That is the belief in many quarters and precisely the trap into which the Government have fallen.

In the present circumstances, the matter is even more important. The Government have overriding power. The Minister talks about government and the Commons. The Commons is the Government, but the enormous majority that the Government have enjoyed for the past seven years means that they have absolute power. But with absolute power comes responsibility, and it does not include the right to ride roughshod over other political views that happen to be different from theirs. In this case, the principle in which many of us believe very strongly is that electoral changes of any kind should, wherever possible, be done by agreement, and that the Government should seek always to achieve that.

If there is difference and argument, the existence of some independent voice is particularly valuable. If the Government do not have their own appointed Electoral Commission to support them, their position is extremely difficult. I hope that, on reflection, the Government will recognise the value of preserving that all-party consensus on the arrangements made in future about changes in electoral law, and realise that compromise is needed on this issue, as it will be needed in future when further arguments arise about changes in electoral law and practice.

Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, I, too, shall be brief. The noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, was right to remind the Minister that there were philosophical disagreements at earlier stages on the Bill about whether there should be compulsory postal voting. Indeed the Minister will recall contributions that the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, and I made questioning the desirability of having electors sitting at home casting votes at an early stage in an election campaign that totally changed the dynamics of that election campaign. It also added the problem that any people who might be have been convinced by the arguments as the election proceeded would have been unable to change their minds later, because their votes would have already been cast.

We also both referred to the problem of people simply being at home and not caught up in the civic duty to cast their vote at a polling station—and how that could change the nature of the election. Before we proceed to make such fundamental changes, there needs to be a considered argument. I accept the comments of the Minister that we could at least make

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an evaluation after pilot schemes have been conducted over whether or not such changes are still desirable. However, many of us remember what happened four years ago when we considered the nature of the European election. We were told that the closed party list system would be reviewed after those elections. That was a monumental change to the way in which we conducted elections in this country. It was a retrograde step, because for the first time it took away the right of a British citizen to be able to cast their vote for a named candidate. Instead they would have had to consider a "take it or leave it" list and vote for a political party. I felt that that was wrong, I spoke against it at the time and I am sorry that we have not had the chance to reflect on the matter, because, like so many of such matters, it will become set in stone—as will compulsory postal voting.

Like the noble Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater, at earlier stages I pleaded with the Government to try to reach consensus about this issue. For all of us who have been members of political parties, although looking at the matter now from the purely dispassionate point of view of an independent, it is obvious that if there is no agreement between the political parties about the conduct of an election or electoral systems, there will be misgivings and allegations will be made of unfair practices. It will not matter which party those allegations come from. It will only add to the existing deep public cynicism about the way we conduct politics and will leave people with a bad taste in their mouths. That is in no one's interest.

So, why is the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, inviting us to take this to the wire? It is surely to be able still to try to find a way of reaching some agreement—not just between the two Houses but between the political parties. That is the best way to proceed on sensitive matters of this kind. No one is impugning the integrity of the Minister, who is one of the most highly respected Members of this House, but the way that we have arrived at this conclusion is highly undesirable.

Lord Filkin: My Lords, I shall be brief, which the House will welcome, so that we may put this matter to the test. The noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, is correct to say that this is not the fifth time that the amendment has been debated, but it is the fifth time that a debate has taken place about whether the north-west should be part of the pilots.

The noble Lord, Lord Rennard, suggested that only the Labour Party was in favour of this change. In fact, if my memory serves me correctly, both the SNP and Plaid Cymru also supported the changes in the last two Commons Divisions.

Noble Lords: Oh!

Lord Filkin: My Lords, I am saddened, as those parties will be, that it is a cause for mirth. That is sizeism in its extreme.

I am more used to hearing from the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, and his Benches historical analogies from the 17th century rather than the modern period and I am not sure which of them I know less about. Nevertheless, his

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comments were regarding whether changing the boundaries was legitimate or not and I shall go no further into the historical record. We are not talking about changing the boundaries, we are simply arguing about whether there is benefit in testing whether all-postal ballots should take place in the north-west in the June elections, given that they will take place in the October elections in any event. It is not the same type of issue.

Not for the first time, the advice given to the Government by the noble Lord, Lord King, is good. It would not be wise to seek to make changes hastily or rationally, to issues, however relatively technical or trivial—which this matter is, at heart—without seeking to achieve consensus. We have sought that, perhaps laboriously, in our discussions on the Bill. I have sought to set out why we believe there is good reason for balloting in four regions, rather than three.

Lord King of Bridgwater: My Lords, The Minister said that the Government had sought consensus. As I understand it, the compromise in the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, is the only compromise that has been put forward. It appears that the Government's attempt to seek consensus is, in reality, to stick to the ground that they have stuck to previously and on which they have so far failed to persuade the other parties of their view. If the Government fail in that, they need to consider their position carefully.

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