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Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I had not intended my amendment to mean that the Auditor General would charge either nothing or full cost. I merely sought to prevent the Auditor General charging less than full cost.
I think that I still have a concern about the Auditor General undercutting the market. The Minister said that the allocation of overheads would mean that he would not undercut the market, but the point is that he has the power to charge a fee at less than cost. Having ascertained costs through the normal cost allocation methods, he might then say that he wanted to charge less. I do not believe that there is any remedy for that, except that the Audit Committee of the Assembly might realise that that was an issue, if it amounted cumulatively to quite a high overall cost.
Much will ultimately depend on the degree of scrutiny that the Auditor General receives from his external auditors, who would not normally cover costing systems and cost recovery, and—and therefore more importantly—the scrutiny that the Assembly's audit committee can provide. I hope that the Assembly's audit Committee will read the proceedings of your Lordships' House in considering the clause and therefore be alert to the possibility that costs are perhaps not being allocated correctly. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting moved Amendment No. 8:
- Page 7, line 38, leave out from beginning to end of line 4 on page 8.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 11 [Access to information, etc by Auditor General]:
The Deputy Speaker: My Lords, before calling Amendment No. 10, I should draw the attention of the House to the fact that were it to be carried, it would pre-empt Amendment No. 11, which I should not therefore be able to call.
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting moved Amendment No. 10:
- Page 10, line 38, leave out from beginning to end of line 10 on page 11 and insert—
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 22 to 27.
Amendment No. 10 fulfils the commitment in respect of the Auditor General's access rights given at Grand Committee. It extends the Auditor General's powers of access to information, and so on, by enabling him to obtain information and the provision of facilities from a person regardless of whether that person holds or controls, or had held or controlled, a document covered by the clause. His principal right of access to every document relating to a relevant person remains.
The extended right of access to information will apply where the Auditor General thinks that any person has information about a relevant person. The right of access is to information relating to a relevant person: that is, a person being audited or subject to a study or examination; persons who hold or control a document relating to a relevant person; or about the documents themselves. The Auditor General can require from that person any assistance, information or explanation that he thinks necessary. He may also require personal attendance before him for that purpose.
The Government clearly wish to ensure that the exercise of the extended powers does not impose any unnecessary new burden on bodies to which they may relate. The Auditor General has confirmed that he will ensure that that is the case through the use of appropriate protocol arrangements.
Amendments Nos. 22 and 25 have been tabled to ensure consistency and achieve the same purpose in respect of a local authority-appointed auditor's power of access under Clause 18 and the Auditor General's powers of access in respect of a local government body under Clause 52.
Amendments Nos. 23, 24, 26 and 27 are consequential amendments to the provisions of Clauses 19 and 53 that reflect the changes in access provisions to Clauses 18 and 52. I beg to move.
Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I thank the Minister for fulfilling the undertaking given in Grand Committee by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, in response to my amendment to Clause 11. I tabled Amendment No. 11 for Report to ensure that the Minister did not forget the undertaking, and I am pleased to confirm that I shall be supporting the Government amendments and withdrawing mine. I regard the government amendments as a more than satisfactory replacement. I merely remark in passing that it is curious that whenever a meritorious amendment is proposed by the Opposition, Parliamentary Counsel must always at least double it with a version of his own.
I also welcome the fact that the Government have dealt with Clauses 18 and 52, which I invited them to do when we debated the matter in Grand Committee. I have just one question for the Minister. When I was preparing for Report stage, I realised that Clause 18 was not on all fours with Section 6 of the Audit Commission Act. After other government amendments, it is made even more different.
The Government have made much during our discussion of the Bill of their desire to keep the English and Welsh audit regimes in step. Now we have an instance where the Government are making the Welsh local authority audit arrangements different from those in England—and sensibly so; we fully support that. But that leaves England and the Audit Commission trailing behind. My main concern in the Bill is obviously the Auditor General's powers. I shall weep no tears for the Audit Commission, but I hope that the Minister can explain what is the Government's approach to the corresponding powers for the Audit Commission in England and Wales and whether they have any plans to change them to bring them up to date with the new, modern formulation, which we would all agree is much better.
Lord Elis-Thomas: My Lords, I declare an interest as the Presiding Officer of the National Assembly for Wales. I welcome the amendments and assure the noble Baroness that my colleague, Janet Davies AM, the chair of the Audit Committee, is certainly reading our proceedings; she may be listening to them as we debate.
This set of amendments is a fine example of the effectiveness of pre-legislative scrutiny—and, indeed, of legislative scrutiny in this House. There is a series of stages. The Assembly's own ad hoc committee, which has been referred to in previous debates on the Bill, recommended in its report the extension of the provisions of Clause 11,
The point of the amendments, and the reason I welcome them, is that they will ensure a proper public sector trail to follow public money to end recipients and that the basic principles of propriety, regularity and value for money can be effectively pursued. I know that I speak on behalf of the Audit Committee of the Assembly and the potential members of the new body in very much welcoming the strength to their arm that the amendments will provide. I am grateful to the Government.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: We on these Benches also welcome the amendments and are grateful to the Government for listening in Grand Committee and tabling the amendments accordingly.
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I am delighted that our amendments have met such approval. I am especially grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, for his words. I have received advice on the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. The feeling is that the question is not really within the purview of the Bill, and the suggestion, which is made with great sincerity, is that she may want to table a parliamentary Question, so that we can discuss it in that context rather than this one.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 11 and 12 not moved.]
Clause 14 [Appointment of auditors]:
"(3) The Auditor General for Wales may require a person whom he thinks has information of the kind mentioned in subsection (3A)—
(a) to give him any assistance, information and explanation which the Auditor General for Wales thinks necessary for any of the purposes mentioned in paragraphs (a) to (c) of subsection (1);
(b) to attend before him in person to—
(i) give the assistance, information or explanation, or
(ii) produce any document which is held or controlled by the person and to which the right conferred by subsection (1) applies;
(c) to provide any facility which the Auditor General for Wales may reasonably require for any of the purposes mentioned in paragraphs (a) to (c) of subsection (1).
(3A) The information is information which relates to—
(a) a relevant person;
(b) a document to which the right conferred by subsection (1) applies; or
(c) a person who holds or controls such a document.
(3B) The Auditor General for Wales may, for the purposes of his examination of any auditable accounts, require a relevant person to provide him, at times specified by him, with accounts of such of the person's transactions as he may specify."
"to enable the Auditor General to track public money passing from local government to end users, such as contractors and grant recipients, to ensure that it has been properly and appropriately spent".
That was the subject of a full debate in the Assembly, which I shall not quote at length, on 24 September 2003, when several colleagues—I cite Ann Jones AM in particular— emphasised the importance of strengthening Clause 11. The Welsh Affairs Select Committee in another place, in a particularly fine turn of phrase, referred in one of its recommendations which the Government subsequently accepted to making Welsh audit a beacon of good audit practice. I suppose that that is the style of the other place.
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