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Lord Lucas: My Lords, I am greatly encouraged by what the noble Baroness has said. There are still some points of disagreement between us, but I think they can be left to work out in time.
Many of these troubles arise from bad procedure and bad behaviour in the process of exclusion. The work that the Government are doing to improve and to continue the education of appeal panels will work back down to heads. No one likes to be overturned on appeal, so heads will also follow the procedures. I think that that was the problem with the Ali case. The governors did not follow the proper procedure, though not in the original exclusion; they did so by continuing the exclusion when there was no longer a case. It should be possible to see much less of that sort of basic, idiotic injustice. I hope that we will see a great deal of gradual and consistent progress.
I absolutely welcome what the noble Baroness said about collecting information on the reason for exclusions. If you know what is happening in a system, it becomes possible to see trends and to focus on what can be done better. Using other routes to support pupils so that they stop short of committing the crimes or doing the things which will cause exclusion must be the right way to go.
I entirely support what my noble friend Lady Seccombe said about the ideal circumstances. That does, however, depend on a basic fairness in the system and on a very good system for picking up pupils who have been excluded and doing other things with them. I can think of several close friends who were expelled one, two or three times in the course of their schooling. That, though, was in independent schools. There is a very strong parental resource in that case—an ability to do something about expulsion. Among good schools there is a recognition that you may have got chucked out for breaking the rules but they will do everything they can to get you into another school on the basis that you will have learned your lesson, or will find a school where the rules are more suited to your particular bent.
We need, as a state, to provide the resources to make up for pupils in state education so that they can find themselves on a constructive path. If that system was on song, it would be thoroughly constructive and would work really well. It would remove a lot of the worries that lie at the base of the concerns that I had—and still have, to some extent—with the regulations. However, the noble Baroness has done enough to assuage my concerns. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Lord Shutt of Greetland had given notice of his intention to move, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the regulations, laid before the House on 23 February, be annulled (S.I. 2004/402).
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for the fulsome response she has given to the debate. I look forward to the further refining of the draft guidance notes that have been produced.
Energy Bill [HL]
2.49 p.m.
Lord Triesman: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Whitty, I beg to move that the Bill be now further considered on Report.
Moved, That the Bill be further considered on Report.—(Lord Triesman.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Debate resumed, after Clause 157, on Amendment No. 217H.
[Amendment No. 217L, as an amendment to Amendment No. 217H, not moved.]
Lord Triesman: My Lords, in the debate on Report on 30 March I said all that needed to be said about Amendment No. 217H. Two amendments were made to Amendment No. 217H on that occasion. I have already moved the amendment.
On Question, Amendment No. 217H, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 158 [Payments of sums raised by fossil fuel levy]:
Lord Triesman moved Amendment No. 218:
- Page 122, line 16, leave out from "question" to "and" in line 18.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Clause 158 enables Scottish Ministers to make use of the Scottish Fossil Fuel Levy surplus to promote the use of renewables in Scotland. Subsection (3) as currently drafted provides that Scottish Ministers, in making budget proposals to Parliament in respect of the surplus, should subtract any amount that has already been spent in the year in question. However, since the budget proposals were made to Parliament before the start of the financial year in question, that subtraction becomes redundant. Amendment No. 218 simply tidies up Clause 158(3) by removing an unnecessary calculation. It is a simple amendment for that simple purpose. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer moved Amendment No. 218A:
- After Clause 158, insert the following new clause—
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I notice that the Minister has made a small adjustment to the clause that is of interest to us. The amendments that I have brought back in a different form from those proposed in Grand Committee address the issue of the moneys raised from the non-fossil fuel obligation contract. When we discussed this in Grand Committee we learned, first, that the total amount in the pot was £122 million, of which the Sustainable Energy Act 2003 has made provision for up to £60 million to be spent on renewable energy projects. It remained unclear from the Minister's reply how the rest, given that it is now the greater part of that amount, would be spent.
As we have a large amount of money, either doing nothing or about to be redeemed by the Treasury, and, particularly, given that in between our consideration in Grand Committee and on Report the results of the Powergen survey were released—they showed that 86 per cent of consumers were aware of the environmental impact of CO2 but that only 39 per cent were ready to change their domestic energy decisions—it is clear that a large number of people need much more help with making practical decisions on saving energy.
In addition, since Grand Committee, there has been a debate in this House and a television programme which showed that we should be worried about the energy gap. For those reasons I have decided to combine the surplus moneys that the Government have not allocated from the non-fossil fuels obligation contract with the need for energy advice and demonstration centres, so that there is easily accessible, practical advice on what people can do in their homes to save energy and invest in new technology—such as microgeneration—which, as a result of amendments in your Lordships' House we now have on the face of the Bill. My amendment proposes that easy access to much more than Internet advice, which is all that is available now, needs to be provided in the high streets of towns with a population of more than 40,000—not every high street in every village and small town can have an energy advice centre.
In Grand Committee we observed that the Energy Saving Trust offers admirable advice as do the power suppliers, to some extent. However, that advice is not comprehensive, it is not available on the high street and is not readily available beyond the Internet.
The noble Lord, Lord Triesman, when he replied on 1 March, said, at col. GC 198, that he could not accept the amendment in that form and that, in any event, legal advice was that the provisions of the Sustainable Energy Act do not permit the use of further moneys beyond the purposes that are specified. Therefore, my current amendment seeks to free up the purposes of the
Lord Ezra: My Lords, I have no hesitation in supporting my noble friend's amendment, particularly as it is an essential part of the Government's energy policy that there should be energy saving in the home. If there are no advice and demonstration centres of the type that she has recommended, how can people be properly advised, given that the old gas and electricity showrooms have nearly all disappeared and that there are now no major centres where people can be informed about energy saving? Independent arrangements that could be financed out of the funds that are now available would be an important part of the Government's plan to improve energy efficiency in the home, on which they are shortly due to be producing a report. If it does not include advice and demonstration centres, it could, in my opinion, be extremely deficient.
Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, there is a great deal to be said for the amendment. Now that most appliances are bought otherwise than through electricity or gas showrooms—for example, department and cut-price stores—it is difficult for people to obtain the information they need. They may buy a new washing machine and ask, "How can I be sure that it will use less energy?". The message is slowly getting across that there is a great need to reduce energy consumption.
I welcome what the noble Baroness said about keeping one's eye on the main ball, which is the reduction of carbon dioxide emissions. As I have said several times during proceedings on the Bill—and it is good to hear it from the noble Baroness—the Government need to pay more attention to the objective of the exercise, which is to reduce CO2 emissions, than on the number of windmills to be erected.
I want to ask the Minister the same question I asked in Grand Committee. If the fund is to be available in the terms of the amendment for renewable energy projects as well as for advice centres, is there not a case for it being available as a last resort if the hole in the buy-out fund cannot be filled in any other way? It has been accepted by all that the buy-out fund is deficient because of the insolvency of firms which need to contribute to it so that the money can be distributed as subsidy for the renewable fund. Therefore, in the interests of promoting renewable energy, the fund should be available for that purpose.
We have not yet had the Government's final answer on how the problems relating to that will be dealt with. We have had various amendments to the Bill and they have been welcomed as far as they go. However, the Government have not found a way of filling the hole. To have the fund available for such a purpose would ensure that those investing in new renewable energy projects will receive the payments which they believed they would receive when they embarked on the investment.
The fact that there was a hole in the fund has reduced the ROC payments, and that has not been resolved. Why cannot this fund be used for that purpose?
"MONIES RAISED FROM NON-FOSSIL FUELS OBLIGATION CONTRACTS
(1) The Sustainable Energy Act 2003 (c. 30) shall be amended as follows.
(2) In section 7 (use of certain money held by Gas and Electricity Markets Authority)—
(a) In subsection (2) omit from "total" to end of subsection and substitute with "amounts directed each year to be paid under this section shall be divided between Renewable Energy projects and Energy Advice and Demonstration Centres."
(b) After subsection (2) there is inserted—
"(2A) Subsection 2 shall apply for six years following commencement of this section, after which the matter will be subject to review by Parliament.""
3 p.m.
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