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Baroness Byford: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for tabling the amendment. I referred to the demonstration centres at Second Reading and I still believe that they have a valuable role to play. However, I am sure that the noble Baroness will be disappointed to hear me say that the amendment as it stands is too specific. I would rather it had been wider, but the noble Baroness can return to the matter at a later stage.
I apologise to noble Lords that I was not present in the Chamber when today's debate began. I was in my office when suddenly the business collapsed. I have not come down the stairs so quickly in a long time and now nearly all my energy is used up.
I have great sympathy with the need and drive to save energy. We have shared that objective during the passage of this Bill and the waste and water Bills. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is not in his place, but I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, is getting the impression that whenever we take Bills through the House we want to try to conserve the precious gifts that we have—in this case, water.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for giving way. I apologise if in introducing the amendment I did not sufficiently express the fact that I do not intend that the surplus money should go only into energy advice centres. It should be divided between renewable energy projects and such advice and demonstration centres. I wonder whether on that basis she feels more inclined to support it.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, I had read the amendment and that was the conclusion to which I had come. I am pleased that the noble Baroness has clarified the position with other Members of the House.
Like my noble friend Lord Jenkin, I firmly believe that the energy gap is real and that in some ways moneys will be made available to us. It is a missed opportunity if we do not encourage people to realise that there are other ways of using energy efficiently. In theory, I support that, but even accepting what the noble Baroness said, I have reservations about the amendment. However, that does not stop me supporting the sentiments which lie behind it and adding weight to them.
I want to pose two questions. It was suggested that the current position is not comprehensively spread. In other words, the ways in which we inform the general public are not sufficiently strong. First, if that is so, do the Government have any thoughts on how they could be improved? Secondly, if the money is not to be used to facilitate that, what is it to be used for?
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, for introducing the amendment. She will recognise that the Government have considerable sympathy with the objectives for which she is striving. I recognise support in other parts of the House for the amendment.
Let me make it clear that we have only recently legislated, through the Sustainable Energy Act, on the use of £60 million of the England and Wales fossil fuel levy surplus, which is the subject of the amendment. We allocated that £60 million for the promotion of energy from renewable sources. This meets the commitment the Government made in the Energy White Paper to increase funding for renewables capital grants by a further £60 million. The noble Baroness will therefore see that it is difficult for us to accept the amendment because we have already allocated a substantial part of the sums and are largely fulfilling her broad objectives in the amendment.
We appreciate fully the value of local centres advising on energy efficiency. The burden of the noble Baroness's remarks and those of the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, was the importance of spreading among householders an understanding of the way in which they can make a contribution to the advancement of energy efficiency.
The Government already fund the Energy Saving Trust to manage a network of energy efficiency advice centres. There are already 52 such centres throughout the United Kingdom—44 in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and eight in Scotland. The centres provide free, impartial advice on energy efficiency to households. A number already receive funding from the DTI's renewable energy advice service in England and from the Scottish Executive in Scotland to provide advice on renewables.
The programme is a dynamic one because consideration is being given by both Defra and the Energy Saving Trust on how best the advice the centres provide may be extended. Defra is already discussing the way in which local sustainable energy advice centres may evolve to cover energy efficiency, renewable energy and transport.
We are also tackling energy efficiency in a range of ways. We went through many of these points in Committee but perhaps they bear elaboration at this stage. We have, for example, the Market Transformation Programme; Action Energy, run by the Carbon Trust; the Carbon Trust's Innovation Programme; and the Enhanced Capital Allowance Scheme, introduced by the Government in April 2002 as part of the climate change package, offering tax incentives to firms investing in an approved list of energy-saving technologies. In addition,
we shall soon publish our combined heat and power strategy to 2010. I know that it will be of some comfort to the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, that the strategy will underline our belief, which we have sought to reiterate at various stages in the Bill, that combined heat and power has an important role to play in moving the UK towards a new energy-efficient economy. The noble Lord has constantly reminded the House of the importance of that. The support measures set out in the strategy will significantly help combined heat and power and will reaffirm the Government's commitment to their target of at least 10 gigawatts of installed good-quality CHP by 2010.Similarly, we have demonstrated our commitment to renewables through our renewable energy policies and programmes and we continue to do so. The £60 million that I mentioned in my opening remarks is mainly for capital grants, which will help to drive forward renewables deployment. Some of the funding will be used to support offshore wind developments. These have an extremely important role to play in the achievement of our 10 per cent renewables electricity target by 2010. Thus, we shall obtain real added value for renewables from that additional funding.
In Committee, we explained extensively the fossil fuel levy. At present, the fund for England and Wales stands at £134 million, and there is now a £60 million limit on amounts that the Secretary of State can direct for use on renewables. I want to point out that no decisions have yet been taken on the use of the remainder of the fund in England and Wales, apart from the need to keep a £30 million reserve. Further additions to the fund from the future auctions of NFFO ROCs are expected, and consideration will be given to the use of future sums in the fossil fuel levy fund in due course.
The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, asked—not for the first time in the House—whether some support could be given to the renewables obligation. We do not believe that we should take the steps he recommends to make good the shortfall. The renewables obligation is a market-driven mechanism. Any intervention by the Government in this way would be a direct intervention in the free market in relation to ROCs, and that might have serious consequential effects on the perspective which might develop in respect of the ROCs market. The noble Lord outlined with great force the gap which occurred some months ago and which caused real difficulties, as we recognised at the time. But we would be concerned about the precedent that would be set if the Government intervened in the way that he recommends with what would effectively be a direct subsidy. Therefore, I do not believe that that is a way forward.
I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, has been reassured that we are committed to making an extensive, geographically wide-ranging provision of energy efficiency advice. I emphasise that, out of the fund of £60 million, £30 million is to be held in reserve. There is a whole range of potential demands, but it will be recognised that the Government are at one with everyone who has spoken in this debate. We shall need to concentrate significant resources on providing
support for, and understanding of, the role which renewables can play in the energy market if we are to hit the targets that we set for 2010. I hope that, with those reassurances, the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, will feel able to withdraw her amendment.3.15 p.m.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken in this debate: my noble friend Lord Ezra, the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and the noble Baroness, Lady Byford. I also thank the Minister for his reply. I agree that the DTI is already doing a considerable amount to change the potential for renewables and their development on the ground. However, the department is not doing enough to stem the increase in CO2 emissions that we have seen this year. Those emissions are no longer going down and this country is no longer meeting its Kyoto targets. This year, the emissions went up by 1.5 per cent. Therefore, I again emphasise that the key is to change consumer habits and consumer technology and to show people that they can have the same standard of living while using less energy.
I do not believe that that is an open-ended commitment: my amendment allows for the provision to take place over a six-year period. I believe that six years will be long enough for the energy advice and demonstration centres to have a considerable impact on everyone's energy consumption habits.
In his reply, the Minister referred to the 52 energy advice centres that already exist. I agree that they exist but I challenge anyone in your Lordships' House—perhaps with the exception of the Minister, who may have made an official visit—to tell me whether they have seen one and, if so, whether they have visited it. I notice that the Minister's noble friend is nodding but I do not notice any other noble Lord rising to his feet. Those advice centres are not obvious; they are hidden and, unless they are obvious and on the high street, they simply will not work.
The Minister also said that Defra is discussing how to encourage more local action. However, as the Minister knows, the bald fact is that, unless Defra has the resources to back that up, very little will result. My amendment proposes a simple mechanism by which that resource can be found.
The Minister has said a great deal about what the DTI is doing, but he has not said much about what the DTI planned to do but is no longer doing. I can give him the example of the Smart Metering Working Group which was set up in 2001. It recommended a pilot study of a completely different way of metering, which the DTI working group suggested would have a number of outcomes, including making consumers far more aware of the energy that they use. Deciding not to continue with such a study is regrettable. By now we might have had net metering, encouraging consumers to be aware of the energy that they use. I had in mind the fact that the DTI is not carrying out that kind of work when drafting the amendment. The Minister may or may not feel convinced by what the department is doing.
I appreciate that the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, does not feel that my amendment is perfect, but I hope, with the rise in CO2 emissions and the fact that action on the ground is failing in that respect, that she will feel the amendment is worth supporting. Therefore, I would like to test the opinion of the House.
3.19 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 218A) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 44; Not-Contents, 102.
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