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Viscount Astor: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, has given two options and I do not think that it is a fair analogy. What we want is local authorities all coming under the same regulations and treating them in the same way, giving uniformity to the way that a motorist is treated throughout the country. That is not taking away local authorities' powers to manage. It just means uniformity in the way that they behave to the motorist.
Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, it may appear that there is uniformity but the circumstances in each local authority are likely to be different. Some local authorities—the county council of which I am a member, for example, which owns all the car parks—choose to impose a punitive car-parking regime. I know that other local
authorities do not do so. That is something that they can choose to do, as long as they do not subsidise the car park out of the council tax, which is wrong. Local authorities should be allowed some discretion. Motorists cannot expect to be treated absolutely the same everywhere.In Clause 82, an exception is allowed to double-park,
- "where the vehicle is being used in connection with . . . undertaking any building operation, demolition or excavation".
Will the Minister confirm that camera enforcement of bus lanes outside London will be allowed under the Bill? I have had answers from the Government over the past three years saying that bus lane enforcement outside London will happen "shortly", "next month", "next year", "around Easter". I have had all sorts of answers but it is never going to happen. I would like to know from the Minister's answer that it will happen. Local authorities need to enforce bus lanes, and they need to put bus lanes where they are most use.
The noble Viscount, Lord Simon, asked whether the power to inspect blue badges actually included the power to inspect the badge of anyone using a disabled parking space. It is not quite clear in the Bill that, if someone uses a disabled parking space, they would on challenge by a civil enforcement officer be required to produce a blue badge. Will the permit regulations generate sufficient funds to meet the cost of issuing permits and the necessary inspection of works? It will be necessary for local authorities to employ officers who go round like clerks of the works to see that the permits are observed.
Reference has been made by the noble Lords, Lord Faulkner, Lord Sheppard and Lord Berkeley, to the anomalies in London, which certainly need to be sorted out. Transport for London needs some sort of oversight about what goes on on the strategic bus network.
We heard from the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, and others about the importance of the traffic police in catching ordinary criminals. From my experience on the police authority, I can say that that is a vital role, perhaps more so at this time. Many active criminals—many people engaged in serious criminal activity—are caught by the traffic police, which is not surprising in that the motorway and trunk-road network is extensively used by criminals. I would like an assurance from the Minister that the appointment of traffic officers will not see a further rundown of 550 traffic police. That would be a very serious loss.
There is a provision for preventing parking where the kerbs have been dropped, but it appears to apply only in London. It is something to which we will need to come back. It is extremely annoying to find people parked across those places where the local authority
has dropped the kerb for disabled people, yet the person in the wheelchair or ladies with buggies have to bounce up and down the kerb.Generally, we welcome what is in the Bill. We hope that its provisions will extend to cyclists and pedestrians, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and to footways and footpaths. Subject to certain clarifications and minor amendments, we will give the Bill our support.
6.33 p.m.
Lord Rotherwick: My Lords, by way of introduction, I congratulate the Government on attempting to tackle the ever-increasing problem of congestion on our motorways and trunk roads and in our towns and cities. I wholeheartedly welcome the measures to ensure the smooth and safe movement of traffic, and to increase the effectiveness of street works. We have to be careful, however, that the legislative solution does exactly that and does not add to the heavy yoke round the neck of motorists. I feel that it is a duty of the Opposition to fight the corner of the persecuted motorist. For instance, £45 billion of revenue was raised from motorists in 2000, yet drivers do not see the road building or improvement schemes yet. Legislation can only be second-best compared to investment in an improved road network.
There has been a reduction of 12 per cent between 1997 and 2000 in the numbers of traffic police. How will 1,200 traffic officers rectify the loss of those traffic police? After what the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, said about a large amount of our crime being picked up by the traffic police, one has to ask what has been the result of that 12 per cent diminishment in their numbers, in terms of crime being detected.
Members on these Opposition Benches consider it our duty to protect the law-abiding motorist from additional stealth taxes and red tape. The Government have adopted a peculiar tactic in pushing forward such a key issue without full consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny. A cohort of various professional bodies has lined up to bemoan the lack of discussion and consultation. While welcoming the Bill, the AA has noted:
- "There is much that is unsettling, unclear or risky".
As we have heard, the newly created role of traffic officers has raised significant cause for concern. Their less than well defined role may lead to a reduction of policing on the road network on the one hand, and a doubling-up of breakdown rescue resources on the other. We have heard that traffic officers are to have the primary responsibility of ensuring the expeditious movement of traffic. When accidents occur, they will be responsible for the removal of wreckage and restoring the regular flow of traffic as quickly as possible. However, it will not be their function to collect evidence or take statements. Indeed they will have neither the powers nor the specialist training necessary to arrest or detain people. All that is to
remain the sole province of police forces. As such, if traffic officers alone deal with scenes of accidents, criminal behaviour may go undetected and evidence may be lost. The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, and the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, touched on this point.A further worrying situation is that the creation of new traffic officers threatens further to dilute the presence of fully trained police officers on our strategic road network. The RAC envisages that traffic officers will create a needless doubling-up of resources, and thus traffic officers threaten to complicate incident management rather than ensuring a speedy resolution.
The RAC has noted that between 70 and 80 per cent of its customers call for help from a mobile phone. This means that in many cases breakdown organisations will already have sent a recovery vehicle before the Highways Agency becomes involved. In those circumstances, the Highways Agency is likely to dispatch a breakdown recovery vehicle in addition to the patrol vehicle already on its way to the same incident. Such a situation might be amusing to the motorist in question if it were not for the sobering thought of the £105 charge to be made by the Highways Agency if its vehicle attends first, regardless of whether the motorist has already called their own breakdown service. My noble friend Lord Astor referred to this in his remarks.
Not only will that constitute another charge on the motorist, but it will replace their choice of using a variety of private breakdown services with the expensive monopoly of the Highways Agency. Again, the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, touched on the problem of monopoly.
I return to the duty of care to the motorcyclist. Like my noble friend Lord Goschen I declare an interest as a motorcyclist and, like the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, as an avid bicyclist. This topic is of particular interest to me. The provisions for motorcyclists and bicyclists within the management of our road network mean that currently, police conducting traffic duties owe no duty of care to protect road users from hazards of which police officers are aware, but were not created by them.
Spillages or spilt diesel fuel, however small, can present a serious hazard to motorcyclists and bicyclists. If you have not experienced it, it is difficult to describe the terror of the loss of control suffered at even a moderate speed when one's two-wheeler comes into contact with spilt diesel fuel. I have suffered on two such occasions. On one occasion, going at a moderate speed round a roundabout, I ended up in a petrol station, some considerable distance away. By virtue of going round a roundabout, I was obviously not going at excessive speed. I therefore ask the Minister if he will use the Bill to take greater account of the two-wheeler perils that we face in our day-to-day pedalling or motorcycling.
In the Bill's new permit scheme for street works, local authorities gain more control over works carried out by utility companies. One naturally supports the idea of redress when works stretch out over weeks and weeks on vital sections of roads, aggravating congestion. However, in the process, the Government look like creating a lose-lose situation for utilities and motorists.
My noble friend Lord Astor touched on my next point. The Halcrow report on the Government pilot schemes in Camden and Middlesbrough showed no significant change in practices, despite utilities having to fork out substantial charges for merely occupying the highway. It also noted that journey times had not been reduced and that the additional cost for the utilities in the 11-month pilot scheme was £1.18 million in Camden. The NJUG has pointed out that the Highways Agency is responsible for the same proportion of unavoidable street works as it is, yet the agency is not subject to the same exacting penalties. Not only are the utility companies denied a level playing field with the Highways Agency but all motorists are threatened by an additional stealth tax. If the permit scheme were to be rolled out nationwide, the NJUG estimates, as my noble friend Lord Astor said, that if the cost were passed on to customers, it could be as high as £55 per household per annum.
As I drive home tonight, I will cogitate carefully on how we might improve this Bill in Committee.
6.42 p.m.
Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have participated in this debate. I recognise that we have some significant issues to discuss in Committee. It is not possible to reply to every detailed point that has been raised this evening, but I certainly want to respond to several very important ones.
I turn first to an expression of concern from several noble Lords who are worried about the way in which the Highways Agency will operate in relation to the police. The noble Viscount, Lord Astor, set the ball rolling, with some fairly trenchant remarks in this direction. The noble Earl, Lord Erroll, also commented on these points, and my noble friend Lord Simon expressed some concern. My noble friend speaks from his considerable experience of the way in which the police operate in their traffic role, and I want to give him some assurances.
There is no doubling up with the police in these circumstances. The traffic officer will deal with organising repairs; clearing the crashed vehicles off the highway; keeping drivers informed so that people can circumnavigate the incident as best they can; controlling traffic flow; and setting up closures and diversions where they prove to be necessary if the incident is serious enough. The police will, of course, be in control of the necessary investigation of the accident's cause—they will deal with the crime issues, witness statements and evidence, and they will manage the emergency services. So there will be a clear separation of roles.
The Association of Chief Police Officers has responded to this against a background of recognising that this separation of function can be readily defined. It gives a broad welcome to the role that will be played by traffic officers. There will be clear lines of responsibility and, in broad terms—we will debate these issues in more detail in Committee—I have not
the slightest doubt that we will be able to defend the Bill and its provisions in the crucial area of division of responsibility.There is also no intention for traffic officers to provide an alternative breakdown recovery service, which was mentioned by the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, and others. Traffic officers cannot exercise an aggressive policy of vehicle removal in the way that he indicated—creating revenue-raising potential by clearing vehicles off the road. The Minister in the other place was clear that the Bill simply paves the way for traffic officers to exercise the removal powers available to the police.
In any event, there will be full consultation. The noble Viscount, Lord Astor, will be aware that we have consulted recently with the RAC and other motoring organisations on the matter. I am sure that all noble Lords will value the efficiency of the breakdown organisations over their many years of motoring, when motoring became unhappy, rather than happy, when breakdowns and accidents occurred. We are not setting up a rival to those organisations at all. On the contrary, we are merely concerned with making the highway clear. The issue of recovery relates mainly to the private motorist and the organisations that provide those services.
The noble Viscount, Lord Astor, also asked about the criteria for intervening in failing authorities. Although that is a question that should be debated in Committee, I shall make an obvious point for which the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, provided the introduction. We intend to intervene in local authorities as a matter of last resort. We recognise that local authorities have important roles to play in traffic management issues and the organisation of their local roads. We need to work with them. Therefore, the concept that there is an enormous drive towards a national authority that would control every conceivable road in the country is not feasible, and it would not be meaningful to have a national plan in those terms. We will require local authorities to shape up to their responsibilities, as defined in the Bill, and show good use of the extra resources that we are channelling towards them.
I refer in passing to the comments of the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, on resources. He berated the Government for their roads policy. He may have forgotten that when we first came to power we inherited plans from the previous administration and stuck to them. Our commitment to expenditure since then has been the subject of fierce criticism from Opposition Benches, who can just about restrain themselves from attacking our health service provisions but have few reservations about returning education to the benighted days. If the noble Viscount is suggesting that a future Conservative government would bring new benefits to the country by spending more on roads, he should talk to his shadow Chancellor, before he drops him further into the political mire as regards adding up sums.
My noble friends Lord Faulkner and Lord Berkeley and the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, asked about safety and the definition of "road user". That term
includes all road users. Therefore, cyclists and pedestrians are part of the process. Effective road management means that on behalf of all road users we must try to create the best possible environment, given that difficulties occur from time to time.I shall not be quite so helpful to my noble friend on the point which he generously raised on behalf of my noble friend Lord Puttnam, who is not present. Not only is he well able to look after himself when he is here, but he seems to be able to get points across when he is not. I cannot be helpful on that front—and it is not because I am inimical to the concept of filming taking place on roads. My noble friend Lord Puttnam wants that to take place, which at times would cause road blockages, and to come within the framework of the Bill. We can see no way in which the Bill can be amended in those terms. However, my noble friend Lord Puttnam is an extremely persuasive Member of this House and he may be able to deal with the authorities of the House more effectively than we have been able thus far. I will wait upon that event and say only that I wish him well. At present, we have no answer to the point he has raised.
My noble friend asked about a national pavement parking ban and how we can keep our pavements as free as possible for pedestrians. They are not intended for parked cars or cyclists, but for pedestrians. The issue is classically one which must be tackled at a local level. The authorities have the powers and we have commissioned a research project with the aim of drawing up best practice guidance for local authorities in dealing with the problem. However, we cannot make direct national provision for it.
I have considerable sympathy with the arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Sheppard, on TfL having a more strategic role with regard to London. Other noble Lords inevitably emphasised London's crucial role. We recognise that, which is why in certain areas we intend to carry out pilot studies promoted in London to see how schemes work here before we expect other local authorities to follow through. There is no doubt that London is a challenging environment, but many of us would recognise, despite the disparagement in some quarters, that the congestion charge has had notable success. But there are other ways in which we can improve traffic usage in London and its environment for all who live and work here.
The noble Lord, Lord Sheppard, asked in particular whether fines on utilities could be hypothecated for transport activities. He must know that that verb is outside the lexicon of normal government behaviour. But we have a working party of local authorities, utilities and the Department for Transport looking at how the fines regime will work. The department will also be exploring with the Treasury what proportion of the money raised in fines can be kept for exactly the purpose the noble Lord identified. I am not one to go to the Treasury and demand hypothecation in quite those terms, nor are many of my colleagues. And that
is not merely because this Chancellor tends to be in redoubtable opposition to the concept—all his predecessors have been, too.
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