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Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, for indicating that the amendments tabled in her name are probing amendments. I understand the concerns that she has highlighted, together with the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for the Liberal Democrat Benches. I say to my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis that we are aware of the need to consult and take people with us, but that responsibility, to play a part in making sure that our procedures are as robust as possible, is shared with many others. The Government cannot take the total responsibility for this on our own. We are committed to developing a range of effective ways to deter people from deliberately destroying or disposing of their travel documents and to lessen the impact of such behaviour. That is why, after careful consideration, we introduced Clause 11. The noble Baroness does not seem in any way to impinge on that Clause 11, and it is important that we have an opportunity to debate these matters.
We are not persuaded that the proposals set out in the amendments proposed by the noble Baroness offer any clear advantages over and above Clause 11. It would not be as effective in addressing the problem of deliberate document destruction and disposal, while placing an unnecessary and excessive burden on carriers, which Clause 11 would not do. It is also a question of how practical this would be. We feel that it would be impractical to take the actual travel document from a passenger for the duration of the flight. To meet the objective of this clause, a document could be reunited with a passenger only at immigration control. This may lead to considerable chaos and confusion at a busy immigration control, where passengers from several different flights present themselves all together.
The alternative permitted by this proposal is for the entire document to be copied. We consider this is disproportionate to the purpose of establishing identity. Only part of the document—the bio data page—would be necessary to achieve that. Copying the entire document is therefore an unnecessarily onerous obligation to place on a carrier, and one that would have significant implications of time and cost.
Clause 11 would permit an immigration officer to request only part of a travel document, for example, the bio data page—
Lord Clinton-Davis: Before my noble friend proceeds, what consultation does she have in mind with the carriers, whether by land, sea or air, or the organisations representing them? This is germane to everything about this clause. I am not against the idea at all, but we should carry the carriers with us. So far, she has not said a word about that.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I was just about to turn to that issue. I said at the beginning of my remarks that it was important for there to be consultation, and I accepted the thrust of the comment made by my noble friend, Lord Clinton-Davis. Both the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, and my noble friend raised this issue. I am aware of the concerns of carriers over the short consultation period before we introduce Clause 11, but I hope that noble Lords will agree that we needed to act quickly to combat the problems posed by undocumented arrivals. However, dialogue with carriers has been, and will remain, ongoing.
We did not include our proposal to require carriers to take copies of travel documents on introduction of the Bill exactly because we wanted to continue this dialogue. We are working together with the airlines on the trial scheme, and we are seeking to develop a technical solution that meets their concerns. At the conclusion of the trial, we will publish a full regulatory impact assessment that evaluates all the options. We will not seek to utilise Clause 11 unless the RIA demonstrates that it is reasonable to do this and any subsequent voluntary scheme proves ineffective.
We are looking at portable technical solutions. We anticipate the start of the trial in May. The cost of the equipment or trial will be met by the Home Office as the technology is untried at the moment. That is right and proper.
The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, asked about the EU API directive. That has been agreed in principle, but it does not make information collection mandatory or define the process for using the data. The regulatory impact assessment looks at the process and will, we hope, demonstrate how and when we can use this information. The two are not in any way inconsistent. I hope that that deals with the question of sequencing.
The result of this trial will inform the extent to which we ask carriers to copy documents. It is not a foregone conclusion that we will target 10 airports or that we would need necessarily to target all flights from an airport.
Clause 11 allows requests to be made relating to: a particular ship, aircraft or carrier; particular ships or aircraft of a carrier; or all a carrier's ships or aircraft. These different categories give us more flexibility. This will allow a more targeted, precise approach to the problem than simply listing a specific number of airports. That approach would be inflexible if such
people switched airports, a point on which the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, commented. We do not want them simply to move elsewhere.We are not persuaded that there is any parallel between fishing vessels—where Defra recently agreed to fund the installation of tracking equipment—and the provision of a copy of a travel document. An immigration officer can already request a carrier to provide "passenger information", as that term is defined in paragraph 27(b) of Schedule 2 to the Immigration Act 1971 and the Immigration (Passenger Information) Order 2000. Where such a request is made the information must be provided at the carrier's expense.
I am not persuaded that there is a justification for reimbursement of costs in providing copies of documents that contain information an immigration officer can already request a carrier to provide under paragraph 27(b) of Schedule 2 to the Immigration Act 1971.
Amendments Nos. 2 and 5 would mean that if a person could produce a document other than a passport—or a document designed for the same purpose—which is in force and satisfactorily establishes identity and nationality or citizenship, then no offence would be committed. We understand that Amendment No. 2 has been tabled to protect those people who come to the UK, despite having been unable to obtain a travel document, and arrive undocumented but fully co-operate with immigration control. We appreciate the sentiment behind this amendment, but it is unnecessary. I should like to reassure the noble Earl, Lord Russell, on this point. Clause 2 already has safeguards for such individuals, as it contains a defence of reasonable excuse, as foreshadowed in the remarks made by the noble Baroness. Assurances were made several times in another place, and I repeat them here in accordance with the noble Baroness's invitation. Never having had a document would, we believe, normally be a reasonable excuse for not having one on arrival in the UK.
This offence is not intended for, and will not be used against, those who do not have passports when they start their journeys. But it must be effective against those who do, but who destroy or dispose of them on the way.
These amendments would mean that a person would not commit an offence even where there was clear evidence that he or she had deliberately destroyed his or her passport on the journey, if he or she produced alternative means of identification. That is not the noble Baroness's intention, but that would be the effect.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, how will an immigration officer distinguish between somebody who claims never to have had a document and is therefore unable to produce one on application for asylum, and someone who has destroyed a document en route—that is, the type of person that the noble Baroness is trying to catch?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, the noble Lord knows that it will depend on the facts of the case.
At some airports it is virtually impossible to get through the immigration controls without having some sort of travel document. At others, people can
smuggle their way in to the country through one means or another. They may not appear at any port and not go through the authorised procedures. The decision as to which is right will depend on each individual case.These provisions ally closely to the later provisions. Having taken the opportunity to check documentation at source as people come through, there will be greater opportunity to verify whether someone did or did not have a document when they started their journey. If they do not have their document by the time they get off the aeroplane, that is a good indication as to what may have happened to that document, and an explanation will be called for.
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, I would genuinely like to seek information. With modern methods of photocopying and email, is it not possible for a machine to take photographs of people as they get on an aeroplane, and then immediately transmit those through a broadband system to the other end so everybody knows where they are?
There must be technical methods of doing this that do not have the clogging effect, on which I am in agreement with the noble Baroness.
3.45 p.m.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, the whole point of the work that we are doing is to try to find that technological solution to this very problem. There are issues in relation to how documents can be scanned. I recently mentioned that we hope that there will be a technological solution to this problem, and we are anxious to craft this provision in a way that would be suitable and acceptable to the industry, that would have utility and that would work well. That is why this issue is going to be given a trial, why we are going to look at the costs of the necessary equipment, and why the technology will initially be paid for by the Home Office. This is new technology and we are going to discharge that part of our duty.
The noble Earl is right. As technology becomes more easily available—faster, more efficient, more effective and less burdensome in operation—our ability to do this will be enhanced.
These amendments would mean that a person would not commit an offence in the way described. I have already said that I do not believe that that was the noble Baroness's intention. The destruction of passports is, in many cases, clearly motivated by a desire to disrupt proper immigration procedures, and we must be able to take action against it.
As well as preventing prosecutions in these circumstances, these amendments would make operating the offence far more time-consuming. Investigators would have to determine whether the documents were genuine, issued by a trusted authority and the property of the holder. If a prosecution did proceed, prosecutors would have to prove that the documentation relied on was not in force and/or did not satisfactorily establish identity and so on.
Ultimately, what would be viewed as satisfactory documentation by the courts might be insufficient identification for the authorities of the country to accept the return of that individual, should we want to return them at the end of the process. If the original purpose of destroying a passport was to thwart removal and evade immigration control, then that aim might well be achieved and without consequence if these amendments were allowed.
Finally, people need passports—not student cards, not driving licences, not residents' permits—in order to embark for the UK. If they do not have them at embarkation—but nevertheless manage to travel to the UK— then they will, in the most part, have a reasonable excuse. However, if they have a passport at embarkation, they should have a passport when they arrive in the United Kingdom. Producing another document should not be an excuse for not having that passport.
Amendments Nos. 3 and 6 would mean that if a person could produce an immigration document which was not in force but which satisfactorily established his or her identity and nationality or citizenship, no offence would have been committed. In order to embark for the United Kingdom, a person will be required to present an immigration document which is in force. They should not be able to begin a journey without a valid passport. In most cases, when a person arrives with only a very old or perhaps invalidated passport, that will not have been the document they used to get on the plane. The implication, therefore, is that they used other documentation, such as their current passport which they might not, for one reason or another, want—
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