| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Baroness Carnegy of Lour: Before the noble Baroness sits down, is she convinced that a child can be requested or induced if he or she does not understand what is happening? That could happen. I think that is the nub of the amendment—my noble friend is nodding.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I understand that. Let me make it clear that a child will not have to know that they are being requested or induced to do something for an offence to be committed. As long as there is an inducement or request, that is sufficient. The whole point of the vulnerability provision is that children and those who are ill can be manipulated and induced without being conscious that that is being done to them. So it is not their understanding but whether there is an inducement or a request that is sufficient which would have to be proved. We think that a child in that situation would be capable of getting the protection from subsection (4)(d) and that there is not, therefore, a lacuna, which needs to be addressed or filled by this amendment.
Lord Avebury: I think I am right in saying that the Refugee Children's Consortium drew attention to the position of very small children with whom there may not be any verbal or written communication. How can a request or inducement be made to such a child?
Would the exploitation of such a child be a criminal offence, notwithstanding the fact that there was no direct inducement? Will the Minister comment on the possibility that children might be trafficked for benefits and how that would be caught by the wording in the Bill?Will the Minister also confirm, just for the record, that we are signatories of the Palermo Protocol? If that is the case, does she think that we have fully complied with its requirements? If we are signatories, it obliges us to take action against,
- "the threat or use of force or other forms of coercion, of abduction, of fraud, of deception, of the abuse of power or of a position of vulnerability or of the giving or receiving of payments or benefits to achieve the consent of a person having control over another person, for the purpose of exploitation".
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: We are signatories, and I am advised that this provision is compliant with that protocol. Obviously if, on further scrutiny, we discover that that is not the case, I will write to noble Lords. However, I am advised that that is the position.
On "inducement"—one could almost say, "caused to undertake"—there are a number of physical things one could do to ensure that a child complies with what one wants them to do. It would be perfectly capable of bringing that behaviour within, if not a verbal request, an inducement to undertake any activities. By the situation in which one places children, one can make them do all sorts of things which are outwith their control. We believe that these activities would and should be caught. I am very conscious of the Pepper v Hart basis on which I say that.
Lord Avebury: The point about benefits is that the child does not have to do anything. The parent or guardian obtains pecuniary advantage from social security from having the child in the household without the child's knowledge or consent.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I do not know what words I can use to make it clearer that if those facts are established, they will, in many cases, speak for themselves regarding whether they comply with the provisions of subsection (4)(d). If we thought there was a lacuna, we would want it plugged. The draftsmen and others believe that the mischief which noble Lords have highlighted is covered.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I think those are the most reassuring words of the whole debate. That constructive approach to the amendment and to this part of the clause will be at the forefront of our minds between now and Report.
I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for teasing out the fact that we are a signatory to the Palermo Protocol. The noble Baroness's response was very important in that this provision is seen to comply with it.
The noble Lord, Lord Monson, teased me somewhat over the drafting of the amendment. In saying that it is in response to a request from the Refugee Children's Consortium, I should make it clear that the wording was my own and is not its fault whatever. It was the only way I could find of adding two subsections without damaging a definition of exploitation that the Minister claimed to be comprehensive in any case. She assures me that I should not be so concerned. I certainly would not have tested the opinion of the Committee on such a broadly drafted amendment.
I feel very much at one with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford, who said that one should not draw the definition too tightly. As he was speaking, I looked again at the briefing of the Refugee Children's Consortium. It pointed out:
- "The only people who have anything to fear from a broad definition are those who trade in other human beings".
I thank my noble friend Lady Carnegy for the way in which she persuaded the Minister to define more clearly what is covered by Clause 4(4)(d). I shall now go back to the Refugee Children's Consortium and consider with it the responses that we have heard today. I shall bear in the mind the Minister's belief that Clause 4(4)(d) meets my concerns. I shall also bear in mind her final commitment that absolutely no lacuna is intended. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 6 [Advice of Director of Public Prosecutions]:
6.30 p.m.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns moved Amendment No. 15:
- Page 6, line 41, after "advice" insert "and training"
The noble Baroness said: In moving Amendment No. 15, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 16. We now reach the first of the new clauses that were added by the Government on Report in another place. They were not debated there, nor were they explained or introduced by the Ministers. As ever, that was due to lack of time rather than wilfulness.
Although I note the Government's letter about the amendments to my honourable friend Mrs Roe—who was the chairman at that stage—was placed in the Library in another place, it does not mean that the amendments have been discussed. My amendments are probing amendments to enable the Government to clarify the outline information that they have given to the House in the Explanatory Notes. Those notes state that Clause 6 amends Section 3(2) of the Prosecution of Offences Act 1985 to allow the Director of Public Prosecutions to,
- "give immigration officers advice on criminal offences for which the latter have a power of arrest prior to proceedings being instituted in respect of those offences".
Lord Avebury: I am not sure that the DPP is best able, or resourced, to offer training to immigration officers on all matters relating to the criminal offences over which they have a power of arrest. Immigration officers will undoubtedly need training in the exercise of their enormously increased powers of arrest under Clause 9, when they form a reasonable suspicion that a person has committed any one of the offences listed. The person may or may not be of direct interest to the immigration officer for having committed any offence under the immigration laws themselves; for instance, she may be a person who has bigamously married an immigrant, whether with a view to conferring on him a right to remain or otherwise. The knowledge of other areas of the law that will be required of immigration officers will be hugely extended and, no doubt, their training will be expanded to cover those areas.
I am anxious about one point as regards which I would be grateful for the advice of the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy. Some of the offences listed in Clause 9, for which immigration officers are to have a power of arrest, are offences under the law of Scotland or Northern Ireland; for example, bigamy under the common law of Scotland. Would it not be appropriate for the Lord Advocate and the Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland to give any advice that might be needed in relation to those offences? Have the drafters missed that point or am I making an elementary mistake of some kind? Is it the Government's intention to arrange training of their own officers in the exercise of their new powers of arrest? Will that training be organised separately for immigration officers who may be located in Scotland and Northern Ireland?
Next Section
Back to Table of Contents
Lords Hansard Home Page