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The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her full and eloquent response to the concerns expressed this evening in the Chamber. I see the merits of the procedure that she described whereby there will be an opportunity to engage with these hard to reach families through the interview which will take place in the course of this process and through the letters that come to them. I see that as an advantage to this exercise.
For me the problem is that we still do not know—as the noble Baroness has indicated—how that will work in practice. I am concerned that we might repeat what seems to have happened elsewhere—I mentioned some cases earlier. Your Lordships might like to consider the case of Patricia Amos who was imprisoned following her daughters, Emma and Jackie, missing out on school. She was the first parent to be imprisoned on that basis and recently she returned to prison because one of her children has again not attended school regularly. The sad part of this story is that this mother is a heroin addict and appears—from reports—to have been too chaotic to have been able to organise her family to help them get those children into
school. Reflecting on that, there is the fact that in the past 10 years the number of women in prison has increased by 194 per cent. Is that figure about right?Although one can see the difficulties that the Government are seeking to address by this, the danger is that it will lead into uncharted waters where one ends up imprisoning a lot of people whom one would not really want to imprison or, in this case, driving a lot of families into destitution, as one really would not want to do. I understand the Government's understandable frustration at not being able to get these families to co-operate. However, the point I should like to stress to the Minister is that, by seeking to close these loopholes, one may inadvertently drive a significant number of those families underground where they will be very vulnerable. I just ask her to bear in mind the precept that doctors use: first do no harm. That is a very important concept to bear in mind when considering these very vulnerable families. However, I thank the Minister for her full reply to the debate. I shall look very carefully at what she said.
10.15 p.m.
The Countess of Mar: I apologise for keeping the Committee at this late hour; as the noble Lord the Chief Whip will know, I am not very keen on staying up late. Very briefly, however, I should like to ask the Minister to confirm that when families agree to be voluntarily repatriated, if they have no money they will be assisted by the Home Office to go home.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: They are. We take steps to ensure that those issues are appropriately addressed. I re-emphasise my earlier comments that it is co-operation that we seek. For those who do co-operate, we are only too happy to assist appropriately.
Lord Avebury: I think that all noble Lords who have spoken have no reservations at all about the Government's intentions in this clause. As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, both emphasised, we are anxious about how it will work in practice.
The noble Earl has just said that he is to some extent reassured by what the noble Baroness said about the process and by the repetition of Beverley Hughes's statement in another place. I must concede that I am also to some extent heartened by the statement that the then Minister made just before her departure. If I have it right, she said that it will be for the local authority to decide how children should be protected under existing child protection legislation. I hope I may take it from that that she means all the provisions of the child protection legislation. I was invited to ask the noble Baroness to elucidate by giving us the section numbers of those provisions of the Children Act that apply, but I no longer need to do so. I am sure that it goes without saying that, for example, Section 17 applies, which allows local authorities to support by giving cash to those they think are in need of it.
However, that raises the question which I think was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, that one is simply transferring the responsibility for looking after these families from the central government to the local authority. Every time they see that the best interests of the children require them to make provision for financial assistance or even accommodation, then they will have to step in and the effects that the noble Baroness hopes will be achieved by this legislation will not be accomplished at all. I really wish that the noble Baroness and the Government had turned their attention to other means of solving this problem, which exists. There could be more provision to help families by counselling and so on to show that it is in their best interests to comply with the process.
I am not sure that the noble Baroness quite completed her explanation of the sequence of events which follows the notification letter. She had got as far as the point that the person was deemed to have received it and they have the right of appeal against it, but she did not continue to say how the social workers would proceed from that point onwards to ensure that the best interests of the child continued to be observed. It seems to me that local authorities have an impossible duty under this clause with those who still refuse to comply in the processes. Although the Minister said that it would be a very small number, I question whether that is the case. When one looks at what has happened under Section 55, 40 cases a week have come to the High Court and they are anticipating that there would be an equivalent number under this legislation.
I have no idea why the Minister thinks that there are grounds for giving the assurance that the number of cases that will come to the courts under this legislation will be very small indeed. But at this late hour we cannot pursue all these complicated matters further. We will have to consider whether it is right, in the light of the assurances that the Minister has given, for us to return to the matter in a few weeks' time, after Easter. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Avebury moved Amendment No. 23:
- After Clause 8, insert the following new clause—
The noble Lord said: This amendment is similar to one that was tabled in another place by my honourable friend Mark Oaten. It would ensure that asylum seekers whose NASS support is to be terminated following the final
Section 94(3) of the Immigration and Asylum Act, as at present drafted, refers to the grace period as being specified in the regulations—the Asylum Support Regulations 2000. The aim was to give successful asylum seekers time to find alternative accommodation and to access normal welfare benefits or to get employment, while those who had been rejected would be able to organise their affairs prior to voluntary departure. The grace period was originally 14 days regardless of the outcome of the asylum claim, but that was amended to 28 days for the successful and 21 days for the unsuccessful in the 2002 regulations.
Unfortunately, because of the failure of NASS and the asylum casework division of the IND to synchronise notification of the decision on the asylum claim with notice of the termination of the support, individuals and families were invariably getting less than the 28 or 21 days' notice to which they are entitled. In many cases they are only getting seven days' notice to quit NASS accommodation, which is the minimum specified elsewhere in the regulations. In a week it is virtually impossible to find suitable alternative accommodation and that creates enormous stress and anxiety for the asylum seeker and impossible problems for the already overstretched local housing authorities and voluntary agencies.
This amendment would ensure that all NASS supported asylum seekers receive the 28 or 21 days' notice to which the regulations say that they are entitled. That was introduced as a result of the Government's own internal review of dispersal and related matters in 2001, which called for better integration of NASS processes with those of the integrated casework directorate to facilitate the removal process in the cases of those whose claims were rejected. That has not happened and is another criticism to be laid at the door of the Home Office, although not necessarily at that of the Minister who has taken the rap. That is my only reference to the late Minister who has recently departed.
When Parliament changed the regulations in 2002, we did so on the understanding that asylum seekers would get the full 21 or 28 days' notice of termination of support and to that extent public faith was pledged. I believe that that was also the intention of the Government in April 2002. In Standing Committee the Minister said that she hoped to give reassurance on achieving the objective. She said that the difficulty was that the clock started ticking when the decision letter arrived and the notification of termination of support followed. Some part of the notice period would have been eroded by the time the asylum seeker received the NASS 35 letter. I wonder whether these people have ever heard of e-mail? I know that the Home Office is the last bastion of resistance to new technology and
"TERMINATION OF NASS SUPPORT
For section 94(3) of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 (c. 33) (interpretation of Part VI) substitute—
"(3) For the purposes of this Part, a claim for asylum is determined at the end of such period beginning—
(a) on the day on which the Secretary of State notifies the claimant of the associated termination of his or her support, or
(b) if the claimant has appealed against the Secretary of State's decision, and the appeal has been disposed of, on the day on which the Secretary of State notifies the appellant of the associated termination of his or her support, as may be prescribed.""
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