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Viscount Falkland: The Minister invited me to help over the definition of "vulnerable". I do not think that I would be out of order and revealing anything in the report to be published on Wednesday if I said that we have had some difficulty with definitions in our work. But "vulnerable" is the best that we can come up with. One of the beauties of the English language, as opposed to some of our neighbouring languages in Europe, is that sometimes it is deliciously imprecise. The French would probably come up with a precise definition. However, the word "vulnerable" is good enough and it belongs in this area.
It is a question of applying common sense, which is what the Gaming Board and the gambling commission will do. The same applies to all employers and employees concerned, whether they work in casinos or any other place where gaming takes place. One does not have to stretch the imagination too far to understand "vulnerable" person in relation to the Tote on a racecourse.
If someone who is clearly drunk comes to a Tote window and wants to bet a large amount of money on some improbable horse—one which has not garnered much support—he is a vulnerable person. If someone comes to the window and is manifestly insane, he is a vulnerable person. But someone may come up and be recognised by a member of the Tote staff as having been involved in a criminal activity with regard to the Tote, or in difficulty with his gambling. That is unlikely to happen on the racecourse but it will be so in the casino. I hope that people will be employed in casinos to watch out for those who are vulnerable. I do
not mean children—I mean other persons. We were told that the management of French casinos employs people who look out for tell-tale signs and moods in people, because gambling is an irrational activity and has dangers.After all, anyone who has money and goes to a racecourse, casino or amusement arcade is vulnerable by the very fact that he or she is going to lose money. However, we must take everyone who is able to do so as responsible for their own actions. No one holds a gun to their heads and tells them they have to bet or go to a Tote window. It is a question of common sense.
I say to the officials who drafted the draft gambling Bill and this Bill that I see no improvement on "vulnerable". I have spent many days trying to think of a more precise definition and I must confess that I have failed. I am afraid that I am no comfort to the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan. We must live with the word. We all know what a vulnerable person is and I hope that those who do not have found some value in what I have just said. On this occasion, I side with the Minister.
Lord Moynihan: I hope that the noble Lord goes on to describe other categories in Clause 9, because I have not had the benefit of sitting on a committee that has yet to report. However, here we are looking at legislation and must consider in detail the merits of Clause 9. This has not happened before and it may be wholly appropriate that it does. It may meet with widespread support on both sides of the Committee, but as the noble Viscount pointed out, all punters are vulnerable. I would be somewhat concerned if I were the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, as chairman of the Racing Trust, about what exactly I am meant to do to prevent the Tote being a source of crime or disorder.
There may be a simple and neat explanation of the proposal. It may be appropriate for the Minister to say that it is clear; that, for the first time, lifting a section from the admirable and detailed consideration of the objectives by a committee whose report we have not had the opportunity to consider can best be managed by explaining in some detail what the state—we are talking about the state nationalising the Tote—or its successor body in the form of the Racing Trust will be expected to do to promote the objectives.
The reason why I make the point so strongly refers back to the previous group of amendments. All it requires for the Gaming Board to take action over the licence of the Racing Trust is simply that it thinks the licence worthy of revocation. It could be, under subsection (1)(c), that it thinks that the Tote was not preventing betting being a source of crime or disorder. I do not want the Tote to be a source of crime or disorder. I simply wish to know, in detail, exactly what that means and what action the Minister expects the Racing Trust to take to ensure that the Tote, unlike any other betting organisation—this does not apply to anyone else; only the Tote—does not become a source for crime and disorder.
I am sure the Minister will give me a wonderfully comprehensive answer to that question, but I am none the wiser about all punters now being vulnerable to losing. As to the concept of "manifest insanity", with the enormous amount of people who put a bet on the Grand National at Aintree, how is the Tote expected to judge the sanity or otherwise—let alone the manifest insanity—of a punter who wishes to place a bet?
Viscount Falkland: Perhaps I can assist the noble Lord. The very fact that the Tote is well run, well organised and efficient removes one of the greatest problems that we have to overcome. I have seen disorder on a racecourse—not in this country—where people have been moved to such rage and desperation by the slowness of the payout at the Tote windows that they have become irrational. I would say that we are increasingly vulnerable people. That likelihood arises when there is an inefficient Tote operation.
In addition to its efficiency and experience in operating, the Tote now has the assistance of the technology of computers and produces details of the payout almost simultaneously with the result of the race. There is therefore no likelihood of delay taking place—and delay of payout is the greatest cause of disorder. The integrity and efficiency of the Tote attracts people to British online bookmakers and, if I dare say so at this stage, draws people to bet with betting exchanges. They know they are going to get paid out without delay and that everything has been scrutinised to the nth degree.
Problems in such areas cause people to behave irrationally. Even if they are not lunatics, they sometimes get bad-tempered and behave like them. It would then be up to Tote staff to deal with the situation should such unfortunate happenings occur. It has not happened under the management of Peter Jones, who runs the Tote, and I am sure that it is extremely unlikely to happen under the management of the Racing Trust. I have the utmost faith in the Tote's efficiency of operation, as do its habitual users.
Drinking on racecourses and while gambling is something about which I am not entirely confident. We have seen an increase in drinking on racecourses and some racecourses have put their houses in order better than others. I think that drink is one of the major problems that the Tote will have to watch out for. It could cause disorder in the queues of people waiting for the payout. If that is of any help to the Committee, I think my time here has been well worth while.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: It serves me right. I made a debating point about a committee that has not yet reported. The serious point, however, is that we published on 19 November a draft gambling Bill, the single most important concept of which is the licensing objectives set for the gambling commission, which are at the heart of our proposals for gambling regulation. Those licensing objectives, which come before anything else, include the exclusion of crime, ensuring fair play and the protection of children and vulnerable adults. We published a 100-page policy document that
goes into detail about what that means. I rely on it rather than on the report, which has not been published.One of the main reasons for having the licensing objectives is that the gambling commission, and in the mean time the Gaming Board, will be able to embody them in the conditions attached to any licence. I am sure that the Racing Trust operating the Tote will wish to do just that from the outset, even before more widespread gambling legislation is enacted. Unfortunately, I do not think that those who bet on horses are freer from the risk of addiction than other gamblers.
5 p.m.
Lord Moynihan: I am grateful. I shall answer the serious point raised by the Minister. Whatever guidance, consultation documents or draft legislation may or may not have been published by a government, what is relevant is when primary legislation arrives for the scrutiny of a committee in Parliament. For the first time, we are scrutinising an exceptionally important set of clauses that is relevant to the future of gaming in this country because it will establish a precedent under which the Gaming Board can issue or revoke an exclusive licence.
For that reason, consideration of the merits or otherwise of the clause is a serious issue, which is why I asked the Minister further questions. I would certainly like to return to the subject before the primary legislation is enacted by Parliament, because we need far greater clarity. It may assist the House, and any successor body should the Tote be privatised, if the Government established clear guidelines on the meaning of Clause 9(1)(c)(i) to (iii) in the context of racing and the Tote. Clear guidelines would alleviate my concern that in this legislation as currently drafted—for the first time, and moving on from previous wording which has been admittedly rejected in a report yet to be published—we should have absolute clarity as regards the Government's intention. That may prove to be a lengthy debate at a later stage but it would be worth having.
At this stage, I withdraw my intention to oppose the Question that Clause 9 stand part of the Bill. As this is a groundbreaking precedent in gaming legislation—so far as concerns Parliament, rather than in the excellent work done in preparation for the potential introduction of a gaming Bill before Parliament this Session—I wish to return to it at a later stage.
Clause 10 [Control when no exclusive licence]:
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