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Lord Rooker: My Lords, this is important. The noble Lord is the leader of a very important local authority. I assure him from personal experience that in none of the places where we are undertaking the communities plan process are we ignoring the local elected politicians—far from it; we are bending over backwards to work in partnership with them. They are the key partnership players in every area, even if the delivery vehicle which we are proposing is statutory in some areas. In other areas, the vehicle is led by the local authority. We are seeking such agreement for horses for courses to ensure that we get the correct delivery vehicle that fits the need for those areas.

So in no way are we seeking to ignore local politicians. There is plenty of evidence of that everywhere I go. Last week I visited both Hertfordshire and parts of Essex, listening to people with different perspectives and from different parties. I listened to those in power—those with whom we are doing business—and to others who represent the community, including those from the local strategic partnership. However, nowhere are we ignoring local elected politicians. They are the key players and key partners. In one growth area the local authority—and in another, the local authorities—is setting up and will be driving the delivery vehicle for that area's communities plan. I would not want the noble Lord to think that we are ignoring or do not want to work with local government; far from it.

Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that. I know that he is making visits and that various people are pleased to see him and to talk about development problems. I am saying that the approach to these issues has to be sustainable. These issues are not just items on paper to be addressed when the Minister visits; people need to be involved in them, particularly if they involve large amounts of housing or development. We have debated this issue at length and we should ask the view of the House on it.

4.12 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 3B) shall be agreed to?

26 Apr 2004 : Column 581

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 132; Not-Contents, 116.

Division No. 2

CONTENTS

Addington, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville,
L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chorley, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cockfield, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Courtown, E.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elton, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Fearn, L.
Flather, B.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Home, E.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Liverpool, E.
Ludford, B.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone,
L.
Prior, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sanderson of Bowden,
L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warnock, B.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Windlesham, L.
Wolfson, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blood, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chester, Bp.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fitt, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Gregson, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Orme, L.
Ouseley, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Puttnam, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Slim, V.
Stallard, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Triesman, L. [Teller]
Varley, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

26 Apr 2004 : Column 582

On Question, Motion, as amended, agreed to.

4.22 p.m.

LORDS AMENDMENTS

4Clause 2, page 2, line 3, leave out from beginning to "region" in line 4 and insert "The elected assembly shall be the regional planning body for the"

26 Apr 2004 : Column 583

The Commons disagree to this amendment for the following reason—


4A Because it is not appropriate to restrict the application of a regional spatial strategy only to regions which have elected assemblies.
5Page 2, line 6, leave out subsections (2) to (6) The Commons disagree to this amendment for the following reason—
5ABecause it is not appropriate to restrict the application of a regional spatial strategy only to regions which have elected assemblies.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do not insist on its Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 to which the Commons have disagreed for their reasons numbered 4A and 5A. I spoke to these amendments when we dealt with the first group, headed by Amendment No. 1.

Moved, That the House do not insist on its Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 to which the Commons have disagreed for their reasons numbered 4A and 5A.—(Lord Rooker.)

Baroness Hamwee rose to move, as an amendment to the Motion that the House do not insist on its Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 to which the Commons have disagreed for their reasons numbered 4A and 5A, leave out "not".

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I spoke to these amendments in the first group. They are perhaps not technically consequential, although I think that they may be. However, they are certainly very closely tied to the first amendment, which, indeed, would not make sense without them. I beg to move.

Moved, as an amendment to the Motion that the House do not insist on its Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 to which the Commons have disagreed for their reasons numbered 4A and 5A, leave out "not".—(Baroness Hamwee.)

4.24 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 105; Not-Contents, 118.


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