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Lord Winston: Before my noble friend sits down, she made the assertion that we may be a net beneficiary of the brain drain. I wonder whether that is true of the sciences. Will she undertake to publish metrics to demonstrate whether or not that is the case and where the evidence for that lies because it is a very important issue for British universities? Perhaps we could look at those figures in the full light of day.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: The Roberts review concluded that while there is anecdotal evidence of top scientists being tempted to work abroad by better pay and conditions, there was insufficient evidence to suggest that the UK is suffering from a serious brain drain. Indeed, the report's conclusions were that we appeared to be a net beneficiary. However, as I indicated, not least because of the experience of many noble Lords, including my noble friend, work is under way at OST to consider what further work needs to be carried out to gather more substantial evidence to address the concerns that the noble Lord has indicated. If figures are available to be put in the public domain, I shall with pleasure ensure that that is done.
Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn: I am very grateful to noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. I am also grateful to the Minister for her sympathetic response. I meant to say earlier that I was grateful for her letter after my speech at Second Reading in which she made one or two relevant points.
If there is one point on which there is general agreement, it is that my amendment is in the wrong place. I see the truth of that point. Since tabling it, I have been advised by people competent to advise that I may have been over modest in seeking an umbrella, as it were; that is, in seeking to establish the Arts and Humanities Research Council as an umbrella body. I am advised that it may well be possible for me to set down such a proposal as a freestanding item rather in the manner which the noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant, suggested.
I shall not try to respond to every point that has been made. However, given that the amendment probably is in the wrong place, two general sentiments have been expressed. The first is that there is a serious problem which is not being adequately addressed. I felt that the second sentiment was present, for example, in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Dearing. I thought that it contained an element of complacency, if I may be so bold as to say so, in the sense of saying, "We know this already. Do we need to say it again?" I am not at all happy with that position. Likewise, I am not happy with the position that I felt was expressed on behalf of Universities UK by the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, who suggested that the matter is being addressed by the present Bill. I hate to disagree with my noble friend Lord Baker, but there was an element of that in his speech.
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I do not believe that the position is being effectively addressed by the present Bill. As I understand it, in reality the money raised in top-up fees and so forth—some of it, of course, will be paid in other ways, for example, in bursaries to reduce the net income to universities—will cover about half of the recurrent deficit of many university budgets. That means that universities will probably be worse off in the near future than they are now. It is clear from what is happening at my university, Cambridge—I believe that this applies to many others—which is looking seriously at current deficits that a number of posts will be blocked when they become vacant. I do not know whether there will be obligatory redundancies. I hope that that will be avoided. I do not see any prospect in the present climate of academic salaries being significantly enhanced. I should be interested if anyone connected with the finances of the university world could speak to the contrary.
I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Tugendhat for speaking as one who comes to the university world from outside, although he has a distinguished role in it as Chancellor of the University of Bath, and is astonished at the disparity between academic and other salaries. I very much take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Desai, that if there is to be such a board as I propose, it would do well to have some outside opinions on it. That point was very well made.
I do not consider that the problem is going away. I am not optimistic that an academic research board, even if properly set up and set up in the right place, would do very much about it, but if the Secretary of State were obliged to comment annually on the matter to both Houses of Parliament, it would at least give the matter some of the attention which it deserves. I shall read speeches with care and take further advice. I may seek the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, not only in the spirit but also in the letter on Report. In the mean while, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Dearing: Before the noble Lord sits down, may I dispel my complacency? I totally agreed about the facts; I said that what we wanted was action.
Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn: I accept that. I withdraw the word "complacency". I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, for his intervention. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Triesman: I beg to move that the House be resumed. In moving this Motion, I suggest that the Committee stage begins again not before 10 minutes to six.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.
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Iraq: Security Situation and Allegations of Mistreatment
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Bach): My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence earlier this afternoon in another place on Iraq, the current security situation and allegations of mistreatment. The Statement is as follows:
"First of all I would like to bring the House up to date in relation to the current security situation in Iraq.
"Recent weeks have seen British forces, our coalition allies and the Iraqi police facing violent attacks in southern Iraq. This weekend saw the most violence so far, with more than 100 engagements between violent insurgents and coalition forces. Eleven British soldiers and one Dane were injured in these clashes. Our forces have captured a very large quantity of arms and ammunition from the Muqtada militia. The insurgents are armed with mortars, rocket propelled grenades and a wealth of automatic weapons. We have captured 10 multi-launch rocket tubes, 300 mortar rounds and three wire-guided missiles over this weekend.
"This upsurge in violence appears to have followed calls at some Friday prayers for attacks against the coalition. Many of those who responded have a violent and criminal background that predates the arrival of the coalition in Iraq last year. They are thugs, not freedom fighters. They do not enjoy the support of the majority of people in Iraq who welcome the strong security action we are taking. These attacks against Iraqis and Iraqi institutions are a challenge to the rule of law, an attempt to disrupt reconstruction efforts and an attempt to deliberately damage the transition to a democratic Iraq. No sensible person can condone these attacks—everyone should support our efforts to deal with them in the interests of the Iraqi people.
"The situation in both Basra and Al Amarah remains tense, but Iraqi police are patrolling and are engaged in other security tasks. Further violence is likely in the coming days. British and Iraqi forces will continue to confront such challenges. As ever, they will do so with the minimum necessary use of force and with great care to avoid an unnecessary impact on the wider population.
"Last week my right honourable friend the Minister for Armed Forces made a Statement about allegations of abuse by UK forces in Iraq. I would like to deal with developments since that Statement.
"There have been further details and images of abuse by US forces, and further claims against British soldiers published mainly in the Daily Mirror. Last week my right honourable friend made clear that if allegations are found to be true, then those responsible for damaging the otherwise excellent reputation of our Armed Forces will be rooted out and dealt with.
"The unauthorised actions of a very few must not be allowed to undermine the outstanding work of tens of thousands of British soldiers and civilians who have served with distinction, compassion and sensitivity in Iraq now for over a year. We regret the shadow that has been cast across the excellent work being undertaken, under very difficult circumstances, to establish security and to rebuild Iraq.
"The UK requires its forces to act at all times within the UK law, which means that they must comply with the Geneva Convention and international humanitarian law. Allegations of improper behaviour will be thoroughly investigated. We are not in any way complacent about such allegations.
"The 33 cases of Iraqi civilian deaths, injuries and ill-treatment, which my right honourable friend mentioned last week, that have been or are under investigation, testify to our determination. These investigations were not begun in response to the ICRC, to Amnesty or as the result of media pressure. We investigate ourselves through the Royal Military Police Special Investigations Branch immediately evidence is to hand.
"In these investigations it is essential that the integrity of the criminal justice process is maintained. This can involve detailed and lengthy processes, but these are crucial to allow the necessary impartial evaluation of the evidence. I can confirm today that two cases have reached an advanced stage with decisions on prosecution pending.
"Obviously, it is important that the legal processes should be completed independently, but I want to say on behalf of the British Government that we unreservedly apologise to any Iraqis, where the evidence shows they have been mistreated—whether, as Amnesty has set out in recent correspondence, in the general interactions between British troops on the ground in Iraq, or in the more specific issues raised by the ICRC about Iraqis detained in British controlled facilities.
"The confidential report from the ICRC to Ambassador Bremer in February dealt with detention issues. We have always maintained a close and constructive relationship with the ICRC in Iraq. My right honourable friend the Minister of State for the Armed Forces had a meeting with Dr Jacob Kellenburger, ICRC President, in May last year, and officials in the Ministry of Defence met the ICRC in April 2004.
"It has been the practice of the ICRC to keep these reports confidential—not simply to maintain a positive working relationship between governments and the ICRC, but also to protect those mentioned in the reports. It is important that this confidentiality is respected. Roland Huguenin-Benjamin of the ICRC said at the weekend:
"We usually do this in direct confidential contact with the detaining power. We do not believe very much that there is a lot of interest for the prisoners themselves of having those kind of issues exposed in the public domain".
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"The interim report in February dealt with ICRC visits to coalition facilities between March and November last year. It raised three specific concerns in respect of British forces treatment of prisoners and internees. Since these issues are already in the public domain it is appropriate for me to comment further.
"The first is in respect of the death in custody of Baha Mousa, also known as Baha Maliki, in September last year. A Royal Military Police investigation was launched at that time. The case has featured frequently in the media since then and was raised by the honourable Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr during an adjournment debate in January this year. It was also the subject of an Amnesty International letter writing campaign. My right honourable friend the Minister of State for the Armed Forces wrote to Amnesty about the case on 11 November and again on 27 January. It follows that, by the time the ICRC referred to the case in its February report, a thorough investigation was well under way and the Government had made frequent public comment about it.
"The second concern raised by the ICRC related to the United Kingdom was in respect of the routine hooding of prisoners. This practice had already ceased in UK facilities from September last year, and this change has also been confirmed publicly.
"In the third case a detainee had claimed that his car was confiscated. We were not able to shed light on the case. The individual was briefed on our claims procedure and provided with a claim form, but nothing more has been heard from him.
"The interim ICRC report was not seen by Ministers until very recently. This was because it was an interim report to Ambassador Bremer, passed to the UK in strict confidence. A follow-on UK-specific report was, in any event, anticipated; and, in these cases relevant to UK forces, the action necessary to address the ICRC's concerns had been taken some five months before the report was issued. In February, therefore, officials at permanent joint headquarters judged that there was no action that Ministers needed to take, at least until any further reports were received.
"Since the programme of ICRC visits last year, we have opened a new divisional temporary detention facility in southern Iraq. The ICRC visited the site before it opened, has visited twice since—in February and April—and is due to visit again next week. We remain committed to consultation with the ICRC and comply fully with its requests for access. The ICRC has yet to submit a formal report to the Government in respect of the two visits it has carried out, but has provided working reports to our forces in theatre. It is fair to say that the ICRC is generally satisfied with our approach and that it described conditions of internment as, 'fairly good'. We will continue to work closely with it to ensure prisoners' concerns are addressed.
"There have, in addition, been representations made by a number of other groups, including Amnesty International, making allegations about incidents, of some of which the Ministry of Defence
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was not previously aware. These incidents do not involve allegations about detainees. We will always take any such credible allegations seriously. Consequently, at the beginning of March, we began the process of a thorough trawl of the records of units produced in Iraq since the commencement of operations last year. This is a considerable task which we expect to last a few more weeks yet. But I can assure the House that if it reveals further examples of incidents that merit formal investigation, then those investigations will follow. And in turn, if British forces are found to have acted unlawfully, then the appropriate action will be taken. That has happened in every single case so far.
"Those thorough and detailed investigations have also been necessary in relation to the photographs published by the Daily Mirror some days ago. These photographs are central to accusations concerning the behaviour of British troops, in particular, the Queen's Lancashire Regiment.
"I can tell the House that as a result of those further investigations the Special Investigations Branch has informed me that there are strong indications that the vehicle in which the photographs were taken was not in Iraq during the relevant period. Additional lines of inquiry are being pursued to corroborate this fact.
"The SIB have interviewed at length the soldier described by the Daily Mirror as "Soldier C". We are grateful to "Soldier C" for coming forward. However, I can assure the House that the allegation at the centre of his evidence, which is once again the case of Baha Mousa, has already been investigated and the case is currently with the Army Legal Services for consideration. When interviewed by the Royal Military Police, "Soldier C" did not have any new evidence to add to what was already known as a result of our own investigations. Indeed, as I have already mentioned, these allegations were widely covered in other newspapers many months ago. I leave it to the House to judge why they have been recycled in this particular way.
"In conclusion, we are determined to see through the task in Iraq according to the normal behaviour set out in the Geneva Convention and international humanitarian law. We will not hesitate to act where these high standards are not followed and we will investigate when allegations are brought to our attention. But we should not lose sight of the fact that thousands of our service personnel continue to serve their country with great distinction in Iraq and around the world. We are appalled at the allegations made against an unrepresentative small number, but that will not diminish our admiration for, or our respect and our pride in, those who continue to serve their country with such distinction".
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
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