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Baroness Andrews: I am grateful to Members of the Committee who have spoken in this debate, and to the noble Baroness who moved the amendment. Let me start by reassuring her that of course we support the principles behind the amendment, which are perfectly consistent with what the Minister previously said. Since she raised the issue of the 10th report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, perhaps I should just remind her what the Government said. We said:
"The promotion and protection of children and their interests—through legislation, policy and effective service delivery—is a priority for this Government, as is the greater involvement of children in Government decision-making".
That is where I want to start—by examining how we come at this principle in slightly different ways, but ways which are more effective in involving children.
Clearly, the concept of child impact statements is not new, and we are delighted that the all-party parliamentary group does what it does in that regard. We are sympathetic to the idea, and we are particularly pleased to note that the amendment refers to outcomes set out in Clause 2(3). I take the point made by my noble friend Lady David that outcomes are only one aspect, and what we are concerned about is the process that defines and ultimately delivers those outcomes with some confidence. As Members of the Committee will recall from the debate on the first day of the Committee stage, those outcomes are based on the children's own definitions of what is important to them.
There is no doubt that all the legislation that we pass in this House has an impact on children—I can think of no exceptions—and it is not the case that it is only children's services that have that impact. However, if we are to produce better outcomes, we must think and act along a wide range of agencies and procedures as well as through the process of legislation.
I assure Members of the Committee that there are three ways in which we do that at the moment. Ministers already consider such matters when planning and discussing legislation across government. There have been changes in recent years. From the Department for Education and Skills, my right honourable friend Margaret Hodge comments from her perspective of Minister for Children, Young People and Families. She has a specific remit to press children's interests across government.
In addition, we now have a new Cabinet sub-committee—MISC9(D)—which is chaired by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Skills. That has broad cross-government representation, oversees the delivery of children's services and, I am delighted to say, includes my noble friend Lady Ashton. The point is to ensure that policy-makers take account of the views of children and young people directly in formulating policy and legislation.
In our response to the JCHR's 10th report, we affirmed our commitment to involving children, their parents and carers in children's organisations in the development of policy, legislation and services. We reaffirmed that in 2001 when the Government laid down core principles for the involvement of children and young people in government decision-making. That is a major step forward, because it lays down a common framework within which government departments must work to involve children from the outset, in developing policy right through to implementation and evaluation. We have chosen that approach because it is a formative route. It is not retrospective, but it is the one way in which one can guarantee that children are involved in the planning stages of legislation.
As part of that strategy, departments across Whitehall have developed annual action plans that set out how they will involve children. Those are available on the children's and young persons' website; I refer,
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for example, to the development of legislation around the Children Trust Fund and the Treasury and the Adoption and Children Act 2002, which involved the DfES and the Department of Health. Those action plans should be seen in the context of everything else that we are doing to involve and to hear the views of children; for example, the consultation process on the 14-to-19 phase of education.
Importantly, civil servants will be involved in changing the culture of what we expect and listen to. Civil servants in a number of departments have already received training in involving children and young people in policy making. The National Children's Bureau, in conjunction with PK Research Consultancy, has produced a handbook entitled Building A Culture Of Participation. It offers workshops to officials across Whitehall which focus on how to listen to young people and how to use their views to bring about a change.
Child impact statements will not do that job. Considering the effect of legislation on children and young people retrospectively will never be as effective as involving them in an informative and influential role. I agree that these are recent developments and that we have some way to go. I take the point that noble Lords have made. However, I believe that this is the right way to go.
Our approach is supported by the functions that we have given to the Children's Commissioner, which is where the human rights argument will come into play. The Bill gives the commissioner the function of promoting awareness of children's views. Now that the Government have accepted Amendment No. 39, as the noble Baroness agreed, he will have to do so within the framework of the UNCRC. That will include his consideration of proposed new legislation. He will have the UNCRC framework in mind; he will be responsible; he will know that he will have to look at the impact of new legislation on children. Clause 2(2)(b) gives him the function of advising the Secretary of State of the impact on children of proposed legislation. That is how we shall be able to follow the outcomes that he determines.
It is more appropriate and effective to mainstream these processes across government by way of the commissioner's additional remit rather than to carry out what could be a lengthy and bureaucratic assessment. In some cases, that assessment might be made by people who are not experts in children's issues. With those assurances, I hope that the noble Baroness will agree to withdraw her amendment.
Lord Elton: The full weight of the Minister's reply was based on the degree of consultation with children themselves in the formulation of policy. She said that, with that process, we could be confident of making everything consistent with the aims which the Minister is wishing to test. Surely, in light of what she has said, it will be easier, not more difficult, to sign this paper.
My only question about the amendment is why that statement of consistency should not be written on the front of Bill, where there is already a statement by the
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noble Baroness, Lady Ashton of Upholland, about human rights. We could then all see the contentment which the Minister has.
Baroness Andrews: As I have explained, we are offering an alternative process, which deepens the level of consultation. A statement on the front of the Bill is not necessarily sufficient. As I have said, the temptation would be to treat that as a bureaucratic exercise, which could simply be rubber-stamped, without our having to go through processes that would really test us on the extent to which we have reflected on the impact of legislation on children.
Baroness Walmsley: I thank the Minister for her reply and other Members of your Lordships' House for their support. I take on board particularly the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady David. Her suggestion is an improvement on my amendment, but it was written in that way in an attempt to fit it in with the Government's stated intentions in terms of the five outcomes of the Bill. I hoped in that way that I might tempt the Government to accept it, but I certainly also accept the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Elton. If all the consultation to which the Minister referred is being carried out—it is very welcome—it would be easy for the Government to sign such a paper and to put a statement on the front of the Bill.
Will the Minister write to inform me whether the remit of her right honourable friend Margaret Hodge, in looking at the impact of legislation on children, will be based on the five outcomes set out in the Bill or on the UNCRC?
I did not know about the training that civil servants are undertaking and it is very welcome. It is important to talk to children, of course, but we cannot expect children to be as knowledgeable of the effect of legislation on them as others might be. That is why we would want to go further than the consultation with children and have experts look at the impact of legislation on children and advise the Government accordingly. The Government could then make the kind of statement that we are proposing. In the mean time, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
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