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Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 79:
"MEANING OF "CHILD"
For the purposes of this Part "child" means—
(a) a person under the age of 20;
(b) a person over the age of 19 who is receiving a service or services under sections 23C to 24D of the Children Act 1989 (c. 41); or
(c) a person over the age of 19 but under the age of 25 who has a learning difficulty, within the meaning of section 13 of the Learning and Skills Act 2000 (c. 21) (persons with learning difficulties), and is receiving services under that Act;
and "children" is to be construed accordingly."
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The noble Lord said: In moving the amendment, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 100, 109, 184, 235, 246 and 247, which are probing amendments. I invite your Lordships to look not at the mechanisms but at the principles that they advocate.
The Bill's principal intentions, as set out in the Long Title, are the establishment of a Children's Commissioner and to make provisions about services to and for children. The question of who, exactly, children are is therefore of some importance.
The first place in which one would look for the definition is what in normal circumstances would be the only place: the definitions clause. Clause 49 states:
"In this Act . . . 'child' means a person under the age of eighteen (and 'children' is to be construed accordingly)".
"In this Act" is not subject to the provisions of any other subsection of the Bill, so one supposes that it applies across it.
However, the whole of Part 2 is again directed at children's services in England—services that one would suppose are provided for and on behalf of persons "under the age of eighteen". Clause 6 states that the Bill is directed to secure co-operation to improve their well-being. However, Clause 6(8) states that arrangements under this section may include arrangements relating not just to persons under the age of 18, but to persons in three different age brackets, ranging right up to 24.
I welcome that. It introduces a valuable principle into the Bill. Those other young people are included for a very good reason: although they are now in their majority, they are for various reasons still as vulnerable as in their minority and as other minors commonly are. By recognising that calendar age is no kind of reliable guide to the physical, mental or moral age of a person, Clause 6(8) introduces an invaluable principle to the Bill. The purpose of what are, I emphasise, probing amendments is to explore whether that principle has been sufficiently widely applied.
Accordingly, the last amendment in the group, Amendment No. 109, would delete the definition in Clause 49, and the remaining amendments would substitute for it supplemented versions of the wider definition implied by the wording of Clause 6(8). They would add a new person to the category of children, defined in Amendment No. 110 as,
"persons under the age of 25 detained in a prison, secure training centre, contracted out prison, contracted out secure training centre, young offender institution, or local authority secure accommodation".
It is scarcely necessary to say why I feel it necessary to include the amendments, but perhaps I can quote from the report of an announced inspection of HM Young Offender Institution at Stoke Heath, between 2 and 6 October 2000, by the chief inspector. The opening lines state,
"over the past five years I have published a number of reports of inspections of young offender institutions that have recorded wholly inappropriate or unsatisfactory treatment of and conditions for children and young persons held in Prison Service custody".
It says, "and young persons". Children are covered in the Bill, young persons are not. Those people are exceedingly vulnerable and a later amendment in my name will address them in particular.
My other amendments in this group follow the Clause 49 drafting in defining "child" in the singular and inferring the definition of "children" in the plural. The reverse process has been used in the Bill itself, in Clause 6, and I have adopted that process, too, although I have no idea why it was done. The Committee will also notice a slight difference in the wording of the first subsection of my amendment compared with Clause 6(8). That is necessary in this and all the amendments because, if I had simply imported Clause 6(8)(a) to (c) into the definition, it would have had the effect of excluding everyone under the age of 18. So this is just sweeping them up into that group.
Other amendments apply the same criteria, mutatis mutandis, to other parts of the Bill. I hope that the Minister will explain to us the possibly quite simple reasons why the extended definition of "child" in Clause 6(8) was not used elsewhere in the Bill—that is important—and, secondly, the Government's response to the proper position that young people detained under criminal justice legislation, for instance, should have access to the Children's Commissioner even over the age of 18.
Those are the two principal objects of the amendments. Other matters may come up in discussion. I beg to move.
The Earl of Listowel: I speak to Amendments Nos. 79, 109, 235 and 246 which stand in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Elton. I shall be brief as he has eloquently put our concerns.
On Amendment No. 79, the Minister has already said that she will give consideration to the possibility of including care leavers over 18 in the remit of the Children's Commissioner. I am most grateful to her for saying that and I look forward to further discussion with her on that point. As Amendment No. 109 is consequent on that amendment I shall not go into its detail.
Where there is a possibility that local authorities may co-operate to improve the well-being of young people over 18 who have been in care and are still subject to services under children's legislation, Amendment No. 235 would place a duty, under Clause 2, on local authorities and other agencies to co-operate to improve well-being. Last night, the Minister attended a meeting where care leavers spoke to us about the difficulties they have found in housing provision, access to education and access to mental health services. So I hope that the Minister will consider this amendment helpful in improving outcomes in this area.
The Minister recently wrote to my noble friend Lord Hylton about the impact of the Children (Leaving Care) Act. Clearly, positive steps are being taken as a result of that Act. However, as she said in the letter, we have started,
"from a low base. 49 per cent of care leavers are now in education, training or employment on their 19th birthday, compared with 86 per cent of all 19 year-olds".
So I look forward to her response to that particular question.
Amendment No. 246 would allow care leavers over 18 to have the benefit of the duty that the Bill places on local authorities to promote the educational attainment of young people in care. So it would create a continuing duty to promote the educational attainment of young people benefiting from local authority services because they have been in care. I hope the Minister will look sympathetically on that.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Elton, for raising the issue of the different age definitions. It might please him to know that my noble friend Lady Andrews and I spent some time when we first looked at the Bill trying to understand why there are different age groups. Officials have given me a quite helpful table which I propose to send to the noble Lord and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and to place in the Library of the House so that others can have the benefit which I have had of a slightly more diagrammatic way of describing the position. I shall attempt to explain why, as the noble Lord, Lord Elton, rightly pointed out, we have differences. However, those who find that it is too technical or that I have not put it well may find the tabulated form very useful.
The noble Lord pointed to what I believe is the right direction. We have written the age groups to ensure that the Bill works in practice, to ensure that we link the ages to the services with which children are provided—in a sense, service provision is the defining fact—and, of course, to ensure that it fits in with other legislation. Therefore, if I may, I shall go through the amendments and say, in a little detail, precisely what we are seeking to do.
As the noble Lord, Lord Elton, said, Amendment No. 79 broadens the remit of the commissioner to young people up to the age of 20, as well as to care leavers and young people with learning disabilities and difficulties up to the age of 25. As I believe I said in earlier discussions, we believe that it is important to be clear that the age of majority—the age of adulthood—is 18. In the main, that is the "cut-off" point, if I may so describe it, for the work of children's services, with very big and notable exceptions to which I shall return.
So we think that, in the main, the commissioner's work should be for children and young people aged 18 and below. We celebrate the fact that young people who have reached the age of 18 have become adults. It is adult services that will be looking after them, with, as I say, some notable exceptions. I do not believe that those over 18 would expect the Children's Commissioner to be seeking their views, but I am sympathetic to the issue of the exceptions about which the noble Earl rightly reminded us. As I said under his Amendment No. 42, I am taking advice, and will be talking to him, about extending the commissioner's role to the groups identified.
As I said, the issue is difficult because it is about definitions and the services that these young people receive. We will therefore consider extending the
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commissioner's remit in the two cases that the noble Earl identified. I hope that that will enable him to feel contented on that issue.
Amendments Nos. 109 and 184 taken together would apply the wider definition across Part 2 of the Bill. Amendments Nos. 235 and 246 would extend this to Parts 3 and 5, Amendment No. 247 being consequential on that.
If I may, I should like to explain the purpose of Clause 6(8). As I think the noble Lord indicated, it is designed to ensure that no barriers would artificially cut across existing services. We would not want the partners in co-operation to be prevented from participating because some of their services are for young people over 18. The services covered include Connexions, which provides services for all young people up to their 20th birthday, and the Youth Support Services, which is the equivalent in Wales.
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