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Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: I do not quite understand. If the amendment does not create a new offence, what is the point of having it? Presumably the offence is already there, so we do not need the amendment.
I am very worried. We are getting rapidly into a situation in which the police and social services can interfere on very small evidence, if any at all, to an absolutely intolerable extent in family life. We are leaving people wide open to the possibility that a child, disgruntled because its parents will not let it do something that it wants to do or give it something that it wants, will telephone Childline and say that it has been beaten. It might do so just for a lark. Then in come the police and social services, and once they are on someone's back it seems from what I am told that it is very difficult to get them off. We need to be very careful. I do not envy parents nowadays. There are so many pitfalls and areas in which, if they do one thing wrong, in come the social services and police. I am very glad that I am not a parent now.
One of my great grandmothers used to spank all her children regularly every Saturday night, whether they needed it or not. She said that if they did not need it then, they very soon would. It was all done in perfect good humour and they adored her. Suppose that Childline had existed and one of those children had been egged on by a chum who had said, "For a lark, ring Childline. Go on, ring Childline and see what happens", and they did. The poor mother! We have to be very careful about giving children such powers, and that is what such provisions would do.
Lord Morgan: I would like to declare my total disagreement with the views that we have just heard, and to support the amendment very strongly. I am also a member of the alliance to which the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, referred. It has shown that the present law condones violence. It legalises assault on children in a way that does not happen in relation to adults. In fact, the original legislation applied to wives and domestic servants. Now it is simply children, the most vulnerable and sensitive group in our society, who are not protected so are subjected to violence in such a way.
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The state of the law at the moment seems totally unsatisfactory for everyone. It is wrong for parents, who are encouraged to believe that they can discipline their children simply through being physically stronger. Their children cannot hit back. That seems an appalling basis for legislation. It is harmful for other members of the family. Criminologists have looked at the indirect victims of crime—the siblings. To see their brothers and sisters assaulted is deeply upsetting to them. The violence can be devastating for children, psychologically as well as physically. It can erode their relationship with parents. It is more likely to make them bullies or people with delinquent or violent behaviour later in life.
We should reject the kind of folk wisdom that we have just heard, such as the idea that you hit children just because you hit them, "It never did me any harm", or the treasured legend of the policeman who disciplined people by giving them a good clip over the ear. That seems an uncivilised basis for the law or social behaviour.
Ten countries have already adopted the principles of the amendment, which the noble Baroness moved so admirably. There is no evidence of snooping into family life or of mass delinquency; on the contrary, the behaviour of children is shown to have improved in the many countries where the measure has been implemented. Incidentally, as the noble Baroness said, that is the view of those in one important part of the British Isles—namely, Wales. If we had proper devolution in this country, the Welsh Assembly would be enabled to outlaw violence in the way that it wishes.
The purpose of the amendment is to encourage not a new culture of snooping but a culture in which respect and compassion govern the way that we treat our children. It seems to me that in no way can these qualities be more conclusively directed and instilled into our society than by stating categorically that it is morally and legally wrong, and physically and psychologically harmful, for adults to assault their children. I hope very much that a free vote will be allowed on the amendment. I hope that the provision is added to the Bill and then, and only then, will this otherwise admirable Bill be a measure of which this House can be truly proud.
Baroness David: I strongly support what the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, has just said and, indeed, what the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said in moving the amendment. I strongly support the proposed new clause.
We have been trying for a very long time to give children equal protection under the law. I remember the late Lady Wootton of Abinger making earlier attempts to end school corporal punishment in 1973. She said:
We have moved on. We have banished corporal punishment from all our schools, from care homes, from foster care and, most recently, from all forms of
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day care, including childminding. But we cannot keep children waiting any longer for the logical completion of this reform.
In my long experience of advocating the protection of children from corporal punishment, I am used to adults finding all kinds of excuses and endless delaying tactics. Very few these days are prepared to come out and actively defend hitting and deliberately hurting children, although unfortunately there are still some. Special words, such as "smacking" and "spanking", are used to make people feel better about what they are defending, which is indefensible.
The debate shifts to how this reform will be implemented. As my noble friend Lord Morgan said, 10 other countries, including big countries such as Germany, have done it, and the sky has not fallen in. Some people talk as though the prosecution and child protection services in this country are completely out of control. If people really believe that revising this archaic law will lead to inappropriate police or social services interventions, which are not in the interests of children, then the answer is to ensure clear guidance and not to question the principle of equality of protection.
In any case, such critics should defer to the experts—those working in the various professions involved in child protection. They all support this reform. The Children are Unbeatable! Alliance is the largest alliance of organisations and projects ever assembled to campaign on a single issue for children. Why should any of us feel competent to contradict that professional consensus?
There is also a tendency to trivialise this issue. We no longer trivialise domestic violence against women, and there is no reason to trivialise the huge scale of domestic violence against children. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, quoted the research commissioned by the Department of Health: three-quarters of mothers smack their baby before the age of one; and one-fifth of children are hit with implements. And we know that any research using interviews with parents is going to understate the problem. Parents will not exaggerate the number of times they hit their children.
We do not like to talk about this issue because it is so personal for many people. We do not like to think badly of our parents or of our parenting. That gets in the way of moving on, but move on we must. The Government are under considerable international pressure from human rights monitoring mechanisms. The Committee on the Rights of the Child twice recommended removal of the reasonable chastisement defence—in 1995 and again in 2002. The European Committee of Social Rights, which monitors our compliance with the European Social Charter, requires this reform. The committee summed it up well in 2001, when it stated:
"The Committee does not find it acceptable that a society which prohibits any form of physical violence between adults would accept that adults subject children to physical violence".
The abolition of school corporal punishment was triggered by key votes in this House, and I very much hope that we will send the Bill to the other place with
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this new clause a part of it. This is an issue on which governments have traditionally allowed a free vote, and I hope very much that the Minister will confirm that at an appropriate stage.
The Lord Bishop of Chester: Today is Ascension Day—
Baroness Richardson of Calow: I support the amendment—
Baroness Andrews: I think that we should probably hear from the right reverend Prelate first.
The Lord Bishop of Chester: I have an excuse: this is Ascension Day. Most European countries have not only abolished corporal punishment; they have abolished sittings of bodies such as this on what should be a public holiday. For many Bishops, this creates a difficulty; in fact, I shall have to leave quite soon because of commitments back in the diocese. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth cannot be here today, and I feel that I should offer a word on behalf of the many church organisations which he sought to represent in putting his name to the amendment.
We are broadly supportive of the proposed new clause. The time has come to move on in how children are regarded in relation to physical punishment. For the reasons given so eloquently by the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady David, and the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, I support the amendment. I shall not go over those reasons, which they all expressed so well.
The caveats that I want to enter are these: if there is no possibility of physical punishment, the temptation will be for a society to engage in forms of mental and non-physical punishments, which themselves can be demeaning and very oppressive. A little earlier, the noble Lord, Lord Elton, referred to Stoke Heath young offender institution. I went to that prison during the past year and was simply shocked at the way in which the young people were treated. There was no physical violence as such, but psychologically they were demeaned and regularly sworn at. Therefore, if, in the criminal law, we now make it unacceptable for children to be restrained or punished physically, we need to be alert to the dangers that may accrue.
An old African proverb states that it takes a village to raise a child. One problem of parenting in our society is that people are often isolated in their responsibilities as parents. For example, the nearest blood relative that my wife and I have is well over 100 miles away. Often parents lack the broader support that they really need. Therefore, if we take this step, which personally I, and I think most members of this Bench, would support, that will not be the end of the discussion. It will open up profound issues about how we genuinely provide for the needs of children in the future in a positive way on the back of what is essentially a negative step. I believe that there would be
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a great need to spell out the safeguards against an improper criminalising of parents, who are doing their best in difficult circumstances.
I was reassured by the legal opinion referred to earlier, but it seems to me that that would need to be gone into with some care, with guidelines being offered, so that complaints were not pursued in inappropriate ways if this change were made. But, on the grounds of respect and compassion for children and the fact that we live in a society where violence tends to erupt more and more, I believe that this change could be a significant move towards making our society more civilised in the 21st century.
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