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Baroness Richardson of Calow: I, too, support the amendment. In speaking to it I represent the views of a great many Christians across a wide range of Churches, particularly those which have come out in support in official statements, such as the Methodist Church, the United Reform Church, the Roman Catholic Church and many children's charities.
I am aware that some Christians have defended what they call "Biblical discipline", using such authorities as Proverbs—to,
But I remember, too, that Jesus gave deep respect to children and also said, in a slightly different context, that what was done to one of those little ones was done to him.
The amendment acknowledges that reasonable force may sometimes be needed to avert danger to the child, other people or property, or to prevent a crime being committed. However, what is completely denied is that such force is permissible, or even capable of delivering—in the words of the 1860 defence—the ability,
The root of the word "discipline" is "to learn". What is learned by a child being beaten is surely that it is okay to bully others if they do something that one does not like. There is an opportunity here to reform the law to give a powerful signal that not only do children have human rights but also the use of force against the vulnerable, particularly the young vulnerable, is unacceptable in our society.
There is recognition that what happens within the family is deeply important. Amending the law now will encourage the development within families of positive parenting skills—I agree with the right reverend Prelate—that may help to reduce violence in society as a whole.
Lord Harrison: I, too, support the new clause proposed in the amendment, which was so ably introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff. I declare an interest as a parliamentary ambassador for the NSPCC.
I find the concept of "reasonable chastisement" to be basically unreasoned and unreasonable. I wish to make three points. First, it undermines the efforts of those who wish to safeguard children in our society. It has always seemed to be a curiosity, to say the least,
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that we should not permit violence done to adults, but we should allow it to be done to children. That is a curious ranking of priorities.
Secondly, does not the idea that a smack could be given to children inhibit those who are working to safeguard children, because there is a lack of clarity in the law? The amendment would clarify the law and would help with its administration.
"Reasonable chastisement" also undermines the opportunities for extending non-violent discipline. All of us who have been parents know that, from time to time, children must be disciplined, but surely it punctures the imagination if we have this resource of "reasonable chastisement" always lying by to be picked up, when we should devise other methods of ensuring that children do not move into harm's way and, where necessary, find methods of non-violent chastisement.
I also invoke the "slippery slope" argument that physical abuse begins early and can be extended into violence. That was clearly demonstrated in the instance of the Victoria Climbié inquiry. In 2002, the parliamentary Health Select Committee made that point when it observed:
"What happened to Victoria involved the apparent escalation of discipline and punishment: as Manning told the inquiry. Her injuries began with 'little slaps'".
Thirdly, there is the European scene, about which I am keen and it is also useful to make comparisons with other colleagues and countries elsewhere in the European Union. How stark it is to learn that where we experience the deaths attributable to physical abuse of one to two children every week in this country, in Sweden, which abandoned such physical abuse—corporal punishment—in 1979, there were recorded only four deaths attributable to physical abuse from 1979 to 2000. We will not be entering into unknown territory here, others have gone before us and we should take heed of the success that they have made of the abandonment of corporal punishment.
Baroness Warnock: I very strongly support the amendment. We have an admirable opportunity to add this clause to what is, in general, an admirable Bill. The report of the committee of 2002 contained—to me and, I am sure, everyone—shocking evidence of the prevalence of hitting babies. I had no idea that there were so many people who hit babies under a year old or under 18 months. It is the most barbarous thing to go on permitting in this country. Can the Minister reassure us that, if we sent the Bill back with this new clause, there would be a free vote in the other place?
Lord Blackwell: I ask noble Lords to forgive me for intervening on this amendment without having spoken on the Bill previously. There are very different views in this Chamber and in the country at large about what is and is not "reasonable chastisement". No one would disagree at all with the proposition that the law should do everything that it can to protect children from violence of a form that would damage them. But what is being
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expressed in this House is a view that any form of physical chastisement—otherwise known as "corporal punishment"—is wrong by definition.
There is an alternative view which says that there is a dividing line between what might be regarded by some people as acceptable chastisement and violence involving hitting babies and children that is clearly unacceptable in a civilised society. I fear there is a danger that this Chamber is seeking to impose on families a particular view on the issue, when we should be cautious about intervening in what parents believe is their appropriate right to decide how they bring up their children—as long as it does not move over the line into what everyone accepts is unreasonable violence from which the current law should provide reasonable protection.
If the Committee is attempting to say that any form of chastisement is inappropriate, I fear that we are moving towards the kind of "nanny state" intervention that will make many people out there feel that the law is going too far into the nooks and crannies of the role of families and of how they want to bring up their children. So I urge noble Lords strongly to think twice before taking the law to that level of private intervention.
Baroness Whitaker: In supporting this amendment I remind the House that I am a trustee of UNICEF UK. I differ from the noble Lord, Lord Blackwell, because it is an unusual pleasure in your Lordships' House to represent a large number of voters. Over 2,000 people were interviewed by MORI two months ago, in a representative sample, that is, of course, one which indicates a nationally representative number, to see what they thought of changing the law to give children the same protection from being hit as adults have. Nearly three-quarters said they would support such a change. Parents, women and young adults were even more likely to support it. Fewer than 10 per cent said they would oppose it.
Parents have changed their minds. In 1999, 23 per cent of MORI's survey thought hitting could be a good way to teach the difference between right and wrong. In 2001, the National Family and Parenting Institute survey found only 16 per cent in favour. Now the percentage is even lower. None of this is to say that parents should not exercise discipline. But they do this within a normative framework agreed by society, either tacitly or explicitly. In classical Rome, fathers had the right to kill their children. In some parts of the world, parents can sell their children. We do, and should, set norms of which we approve. In clarifying a small part of the normative framework for adult behaviour to children, our amendment does not interfere with the right of parents to punish their children and nor does it change the threshold for formal investigation or breach the family's right to privacy.
I, too, think that this is an idea whose time has come. That is not to say that everybody in your Lordships' House shares it. That is the fate of new ideas, even if their time has come. Not everyone recognises change.
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Even such small changes in the law can make people wary as they cling to what they consider are the tried and tested concepts.
Tried, indeed. A father who used a belt to whip his four year-old son for refusing to write his name was acquitted, using the "reasonable chastisement" defence. A father who hit his 12 year-old daughter in the face such that she had difficulty in opening her jaw was acquitted. Tested, certainly. Bruises were still evident a week later on the eight and nine year-old foster children of another acquitted parent.
It is easier to move when other circumstances have fallen into place. We have arrived at a stage in our society when the law gives our children a right to education, access to health services, family life, shelter and protection, and freedom from discrimination. We should also give them equal protection with adults against assault. We think of children as of equal worth with adults, I am sure. Let us now have the opportunity to demonstrate that conviction by a free vote. I am proud of this Government's achievements. I would like to be proud of one more.
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