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Lord Turnberg: I, too, strongly support the amendment. I shall speak briefly because most of what I might have said has been said much more eloquently. The particular point I want to make relates to the concept of "reasonable chastisement", which I find difficult. It is essential that we define it clearly and narrowly as in the amendment. What might be thought reasonable by one person might be considered assault by another.

Anyone who has worked in an accident and emergency department in any of our hospitals will recognise the children who all too frequently have suffered at the hands of their parents. Those parents either believe that they were behaving perfectly reasonably or deny completely any responsibility for the multiple bruises or fractures that their children display. I am not speaking of the normal bruises, bumps or fractures which all children seem to acquire during what seems to be a normal active life. I am talking about the evidence of systematic beatings, which is difficult or impossible to explain away.

Reasonable chastisement lies on a spectrum of physical chastisement and it is very much dependent on how individual parents view reasonableness. And what seems reasonable to them might seem quite unreasonable to your Lordships. There are far too many instances where the fluid, uncertain, moveable boundary between reasonable and unreasonable has been overstepped. I therefore very much favour the amendment and the possibility of a free vote.

Baroness Stern: I want to add my voice to those supporting the amendment. I very much support the points made so effectively by my noble friend Lady Finlay and others. I want to make two points. One is on the importance of law not just as something used in response to an act, but as the highest expression of our values. And so the law should not say that doing
 
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violence to another human being is allowed in certain circumstances. This is the normative framework so well expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker.

My second point has been alluded to, but it is worth repeating. Treating children violently has long-term and serious consequences. Some noble Lords will remember the longitudinal study carried out by John and Elizabeth Newson, who followed a cohort of children through their lives looking at various child-rearing variables at the ages of seven and 11 and links with how these children turned out in adulthood. I want to quote them briefly. They reported:

A considerable body of research supports that important study.

Perhaps the reason so many professional organisations support the amendment is that they have had years of experience in looking into the background of people who end up committing violent acts. Nearly always, there is a violent childhood somewhere in the background. Anyone who has experience of reading, for example, parole reports will know the strong effects that a violent childhood can have.

Much more needs to be done than just this change in the law to reduce the high and unacceptable levels of violence we endure in this country, but it is an important part of it and I hope we shall take this opportunity.

Lord Northbourne: I wish that I could give completely unqualified support to the amendment. It is beautifully drafted and I congratulate my noble friend Lady Finlay and many of my Cross Bench colleagues and others who have spoken in favour of it.

There is no doubt that there is a real problem. I am fully conscious of the fact that violence breeds violence in the next generation and that uncontrolled anger creates uncontrolled anger in the next generation. These are huge problems which need to be addressed. It is wholly desirable to try to achieve the objective of the Bill, which is, effectively, no violence in the home. The question is: is this best done by legislation? Is it best done by attempting to legislate for intimate relationships within the home?

Here I declare an interest because I want to speak briefly about the possible effect on parents. In this context, I was instrumental in founding, and was for seven years chairman of, the Parenting Education and Support Forum. My concern is that many parents do not know any other way of disciplining their children. From my conversations, I believe that there is a real possibility that many parents who are disciplining their children through violence will either continue to do so or will simply throw in the towel and say, "If
 
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that's what the Government want, let the little bleeders go and create anti-social behaviour". I see the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, shaking his head. There are parents who will say those things.

Even people who are deeply resistant to the idea of parenting orders and to being shown another way of parenting say, when they have been forced to learn a little of how the parent/child relationship can work, "Why was that information denied to us? Why did my child have to commit a crime before I was given this help?". I may table an amendment at a later stage, but if the Government are to introduce this provision, they should make it conditional upon the universal availability of affordable education and support for parents.

Lord Elton: I support what the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, has just said. I believe that the two things go together. In writing a report for the Government years ago about discipline in schools, I was very much struck by the cascade effect. One would find teenage mothers in school who were themselves the daughter of a teenage mother. Some intervention has to be made to break the awful chain before we start using legislation which could quite seriously disrupt the lives of people without any positive result.

Lord Hylton: I entirely support what my noble friend Lord Northbourne has just said. I believe that there are many responsible, loving, caring parents up and down the country who would take a slightly different point of view from that so eloquently expressed by many who have supported the amendment. I do not know what line the Government will take but, if they are supportive, I suggest to those who tabled the amendment that they consider widening the three exceptions in subsection (2).

Lord Swinfen: I do not agree with the amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, in moving the amendment said that it would create no new offences. Therefore, I see no reason to put it on the statute book. It is otiose. There are occasions when reasonable chastisement is justified for the safety of children and for the safety of others. Reasonable chastisement, given quickly in a loving family, is soon over, the offence finished with and the family goes on. Other forms of punishment can go on for hours or days and do not help the relationship between parents and their children.

I remember some 50 years or so ago, I and two other boys being caught breaking the rules at school. Two of us were beaten, but the other one could not be beaten for medical reasons. As the right reverend Prelate said, other forms of punishment can be much harsher. That boy had to translate 1,000 lines from English into Latin. It took him days. In my view the punishment was very much heavier and harder than the three strokes of the cane that I had. In fact the strokes warmed me up on a cold winter's evening. I am certain that I benefited from it far more than my colleague whose punishment lasted several days.
 
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Reasonable chastisement within the family is occasionally necessary. Some of the examples given so far in the debate have been obvious examples of illegal behaviour which, I am afraid, would still take place if this provision became law. It will not improve the situation.

Lord Cameron of Lochbroom: I do not wish to comment on the spirit in which the amendment is tabled, but I want to take up the cautionary note sounded by the right reverend Prelate; namely, that it would be an innovation to the criminal law. Noble Lords will want to look very carefully at the wording in which the innovation is put before the Committee. Underlying the amendment is the proposition that an assault upon a child by a parent is not to be justified if it constitutes punishment. In subsection (2) there is the proposition that,

and what follows in each of the paragraphs is what is clearly intended to be a matter of fact.

Perhaps this misses something that the criminal law has recognised as being important in a defence of someone charged with an offence of intent; namely, that he or she is not guilty of the offence if he or she honestly or genuinely believed that the state of fact existed which constitutes the offence. One can see that in terms of subsection (2)(a), (b) and (c), a parent may have to make a quick decision about what is about to happen and may be entirely wrong about what was in prospect. But surely it would be wrong in such a case to deprive that parent of what appears to be an exclusion from the principal offence which is constituted in this amendment.

Equally, I comment on subsection (2)(c), as the Committee may want to look at the terms used. The paragraph states:

and so on. The Committee may want to consider how that would work in the context of what effectively is being given as a defence to the person who is accused of the offence of battery as intended in the clause.

I do not wish to enter upon the spirit in which the amendment is tabled. The Committee has already heard many views expressed, but I suggest that the Committee must be careful at this stage to ensure that, if one is to take this forward, one does not deprive those who may be affected of a defence which is open to anyone in the criminal law; namely, that of honest and genuine belief in a state of affairs that has led to the act being committed.

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