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Baroness Walmsley: I have added my name to this sensible and fair modernisation of the law on the basis that it seeks to give children the same right to equal protection under the law of assault as adults enjoy. The Government have done a good deal for human rights, with the Human Rights Act 1998 and the Freedom of
 
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Information Act 2000; they have given equal rights to people with disabilities, people of all races and creeds and they have even outlawed discrimination on the basis of age. So I find it difficult to understand why they are so reluctant to give equality to children. It is the smallest, most fragile and vulnerable in society who need equality the most, and yet their voice is still not being heard. Nor is the voice of the many people who support this move to give them equality being heard.

There is now massive support for this change, so the Government need not fear that to legislate would be unpopular. The noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, has already referred to the recent MORI poll, which shows that a vast majority of the public are in favour of a change. There is also a great deal of political support. Nearly 200 Peers and MPs are signed up to the Children are unbeatable! alliance; 55 per cent of Labour MPs support reform, with 45 per cent overall in another place supporting a change and only 35 per cent opposing it.

The pressure from those who have looked at the matter in detail is impressive. The parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights, the House of Commons Health Select Committee and, of course, the National Assembly for Wales have all called for reform after careful consideration of the case for and against.

There is also enormous international pressure, to which the noble Baroness, Lady David, referred. More than 350 children's and professional organisations support reform, as do the Catholic Church in England and Wales, the Methodists, the United Reform Churches and many other faith groups. I am most grateful to hear today of the support of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester and that of his brother Bishops in this House.

With such a broad spectrum of people wanting change, why are the Government hesitating? They must remember that they govern only with the consent of the people, and the people want this reform. They want this protection for their children and grandchildren, and, if the Government were to hesitate to give a free vote, they would want to know why, given the overwhelming evidence of the benefits reform has brought to child protection, in the 10 other European countries that have introduced an equivalent change.

From our previous debates on this subject, most of your Lordships are very familiar with the case of Sweden, which was the first country to bring in this change. The benefits and the reduction of interventions in family life in Sweden that has been brought about by this fundamental change in the law is very impressive. The reasons, I suspect, are similar to those expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Laming, on Second Reading, and in a letter to Cross-Benchers. I am sorry that the noble Lord is not in his place, but I trust that he will read Hansard, and I hope that I can set his and the Government's mind at rest about some of the issues that have been raised.

First, it is said that we do not need the change because the defence has been attempted only a handful of times and has succeeded only once. This is not true; the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, has given details of a couple of cases, and I have details of about eight cases, if any noble Lords would like to see them.
 
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The noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, said that this reform is not needed. It is needed, because it has been used to excuse child abuse. People have got away with unreasonable abuse of children by using this defence, and that is why we need to remove it. However, it is not just the use of the defence but simply its existence which undermines child protection and the work of all those promoting the positive, non-violent forms of discipline for which the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester has rightly called.

The noble Lord, Lord Laming, fears that removal of the defence has become inextricably linked with the creation of a total ban on smacking. As has been said by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, the new clause does not create any new offence; it removes the existing defence in so far as it allows the battery to be justified in a court of law as lawful punishment. It thus gives children equal protection under the law on assault—no more and no less. That is what we ask for today.

The new clause does not trespass upon parents' legitimate right—nay, duty—to discipline their children appropriately. Indeed, it carefully preserves parents' rights to use physical actions to protect and restrain their children when in danger, and so on. I hear the wise words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cameron, about the detail of that part of the amendment, at which we shall look carefully.

There really are only two alternatives. One is the status quo, which so many of us in your Lordships' House find so objectionable. The other is giving children equal protection from battery, as adults have. What do we mean by the current adult law? If I, for example, were to turn to my noble friend Lady Sharp, who is sitting next to me, and smack her on her arm, that would be an assault. It might get me on "Yesterday in Parliament", but it would not get me in court charged with assault. That is the way the adult law operates, and that is how we would expect the law to operate for children as well. We are asking for equality—no more and no less.

A number of noble Lords, such as the noble Lords, Lord Blackwell and Lord Northbourne, and perhaps the Government, fear the extent of intrusion by the state into family life. We are not suggesting, and the new clause does not imply, any change in the Children Act threshold for formal investigation; that is, that a child is, or may be, suffering significant harm. But violence against children does not justify any less intrusion into the family in the form of clear law than violence against women or vulnerable adults within the family. That is something about which the Government have done a great deal, and I hope that they will follow it through and do the same for children.

These issues have been the subject of human rights judgments which have emphasised that giving children equal protection does not breach rights to family privacy nor, by the way, to religious freedom.
 
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It has been said that the removal of the defence is likely to endanger parenting education and support for the development of good parenting skills. I really do not see how that could happen. Indeed, the publicity surrounding this debate sends a clear message that it is as unacceptable and unlawful to hit a child as to hit anyone else.

I also hope that, following this legislative change, the Government will increase their efforts to help and support parents who are having difficulties with their children. A great deal has been done, but the public need to know that if a defence is being taken away from them, support will be given in its place. It is in everybody's interests that it should be. Besides, parents' organisations support this reform too, so they do not seem too worried about this intrusion.

I am very happy to be able to tell the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, that both the Parenting Education and Support Forum and the National Family and Parenting Institute favour removal of the defence of reasonable chastisement—

Lord Northbourne: On a point of clarification, I did not suggest for a moment that the Parenting Education and Support Forum did not approve of it, but it endorses my condition that proper support and education should be available.

Baroness Walmsley: I thank the noble Lord for that intervention, and I absolutely agree with him. I support it too. Hundreds of other organisations working directly with families, including many Sure Start projects, support this reform in the law.

Worries have also been expressed about otherwise caring parents being brought into contact with the criminal justice system through malicious allegations. Such worries are unfounded. From our contacts with police representatives, we know that ACPO does not oppose this reform, and all the other elements of multidisciplinary child protection strongly support it. ACPO has some concerns about the implications for policing, as would be the case with any new legislation, but believes that these can be overcome if appropriate and unambiguous guidance is issued. That is a very important element.

If an assault is reported but it appears that the child has not suffered significant harm, the social services would be informed and no further police action taken. The matter will not even be recorded as a crime. The professional judgment of the social services will then decide whether to offer support and help to the parents, or whatever other action might be necessary to help them. Given that, and the reassurances we have had from the Director of Public Prosecutions that it is highly unlikely that any inappropriate charges would ever be brought, I really do not see how our new clause can possibly be regarded as a total ban on smacking, however bad a method of discipline it might be, or a danger to the reputation of caring parents. However, it is crucial that clear guidance is issued to the police on the implementation of a change in legislation.
 
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I have admitted on previous occasions when we have debated this matter that I did, now and then, hit my children out of sheer frustration and not knowing what better to do. How I wish the help and support that is now available, as well as the understanding about how harmful hitting can be and the knowledge about better ways, had been available to me 30 or so years ago. However, we must move on. I am confident that the way in which this law reform would operate would not have criminalised me. I was a caring parent and my children did not suffer "significant harm" from my actions, even though I regret having hit them—it was never a good way of teaching them how to behave well.

In his letter to Cross-Bench Peers, the noble Lord, Lord Laming, said that he feared that the removal of the defence would be marginal and apply to only a handful of situations, but that the remedy would affect millions of parents. I hope and trust that he is right. Removal of the defence will ease prosecution in those few cases in which it is necessary for child protection and in the best interests of the affected child. If the reform is accompanied, as it must be, by appropriate awareness-raising, on the basis of the experience of other countries, we can be confident that it will lead to rapid changes in attitudes and rapid reduction in reliance on corporal punishment. In that sense, we hope that it will have implications for millions of children and parents.

Since when did this House hesitate to do the right thing out of fear that a few malicious people would seek to abuse the law? From research commissioned by the Department of Health, we know that most children, including babies, are hit and that many are hit often. We have more child deaths per head of population than any other European country. It is that context, together with the principles of human rights and equality, that this reform is aimed to address and I recommend it to the Committee.

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