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Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, I am deeply concerned about this issue. I am concerned about the principle to introduce, in due course, the no win, no fee arrangements. The noble Lord elaborated on that.

The Government have it in mind to replace the Legal Services Commission with the judiciary in determining whether costs should be ordered. The judge would so order only if he decided that a case was either successful or a near-miss. Solicitors are therefore bound to be unduly cautious in approaching such matters.

The system that is envisaged is likely to have deleterious effects. First, solicitors are likely to give up legal aid work in that field because they feel that they are unable to work at all, or properly, under the circumstances that are envisaged. Secondly, there is a by no means remote possibility of a conflict of interest between the lawyer, whose attitude is likely to be that he will act only if the application is almost certain to succeed, and the lay client, who will want the application to proceed if he has an arguable case. Why, therefore, should there not be representation in all arguable cases?

Unmeritorious cases should not be publicly funded. I entirely agree with that proposition. That, in summary, is the view of the Government. However, do the Government not recognise that effective filters already exist? First, there is the Legal Services Commission, which imposes cost assessment audits, Quality Mark audits and peer review, where firms undertake immigration work, which is publicly funded. Secondly, the Legal Services Commission, rather than the solicitor, determines at present whether the case has enough merit and whether an appeal to the Asylum and Immigration Tribunal should be publicly funded. Thirdly, from 2005, the accreditation system will apply to all lawyers who practise publicly funded work in such cases.

Complex issues of law and fact are the rule rather than the exception. To decide them, it is often desirable that the applicant should give evidence. Why should we find that unacceptable?

Many sound claims are too often refused at the initial stage, where Home Office decision-making is often found to be wanting. Representation at that stage is therefore often indispensable.
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There is likely to be an increase in unrepresented applicants, however unmeritorious they may be, and the courts will be hopelessly overloaded. In such circumstances, the Government will incur, rather than save, costs. I therefore hope that my noble friend will think again about his propositions.

Lord Newton of Braintree: My Lords, I indicated earlier that when the Council on Tribunals looked at some of the proposals, though it concentrated on Ulster in particular, it was concerned by a number of points of detail. This is another of them.

I shall not attempt to speak with the eloquence of the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, with his much wider knowledge of the operations of the legal profession, but it seems to be a matter of layman's common sense that if public funding is to be dependent on the ultimate outcome, which is what appears to be envisaged, there must be a risk that lawyers will feel strongly discouraged from taking on cases that may be meritorious in the normal use of that term, but not 100 per cent certain of being meritorious. In the area of asylum and immigration, it is singularly open to question whether that is a proper path to follow.

Being a natural seeker after the middle way, of the two amendments moved by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, I think that I prefer his compromise amendments to his complete "throw out this bit of the Bill" amendment, but I hope that the Government will look again at the issue.

From our experience at the Council on Tribunals—as was touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis—there is considerable evidence that suggests that the absence of legal representation can extend the time and complexity of the hearing and make it much more difficult to handle matters in a manageable way. Any former Member of Parliament will know from discussions in his surgery that many complainants, claimants or applicants often find it difficult to distinguish the points that really matter from those that are not necessarily essential to the issue. Legal representation really can improve the smoothness and efficiency of the working of arrangements of that kind. With the best will in the world, I hope that the Minister will be prepared to take another look at the matter.

The Lord Bishop of Newcastle: My Lords, I too wish to ask the Government to give further consideration to these matters. They are of concern to all those noble Lords who have spoken today. While I am pleased that the Government have amended their proposals to allow for costs to be paid out of the Community Legal Service fund, I would like some reassurances about how that is going to work out in practice, especially in cases involving children and families.

A no win, no fee approach puts children and families at risk from the unscrupulous or the faint-hearted, who may tell them that they do not have a strong enough case to take on, and that if they want to appeal, they must pay privately. It is worrying to find a child or a family being told to produce a significant sum. The Children's Society
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has experience of upfront payments of £200 being demanded from a child, to be produced in a short space of time, before a case would be taken on.

The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt, but would the noble Lords on the Benches opposite mind confining their sub-committee to outside the Chamber? I am finding it difficult to hear what the right reverend Prelate is saying.

The Lord Bishop of Newcastle: My Lords, equally it is becoming difficult to find good legal representatives for children and families. We need to remember that the best protection against incompetence or unscrupulousness is a sufficiency of good representatives. I am not at all sure that these proposals will enable that.

My other concern is about a no-win/no-fee arrangement in this case. I am not aware of such a scheme operating in any other areas that are about fundamental human rights. That seems to be the basic point, which is why I fully support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart.

Lord Avebury: My Lords, the right reverend Prelate is right. I do not think that any of us can produce an example where human rights are at stake and where a no-win/no-fee proposal has been made, let alone introduced. I wish to refer to the representations that we and perhaps other noble Lords have received from the Medical Foundation for the Care of Victims of Torture. It says:

The Medical Foundation has drawn our attention to two cases. I will give the Minister the references in case he wants to look them up. The first is Neutral Citation No: CO–2174–00, which was heard on 21 November 2000 before Sir Richard Tucker. The adjudicator had rejected the applicant's claim for asylum mainly on credibility grounds. Mr Justice Tucker, however, allowed the judicial review application saying that he did not agree with the counsel who appeared on behalf of the Secretary of State that the adjudicator's findings of fact were sustainable. In his view they were not and the case had to be reviewed and should be taken before the immigration tribunal. The claimant was later recognised as a refugee.

The second example is where a chairman of the tribunal determined an application for permission to appeal. The appeal number is HX/42009/2003, which took place on 8 December 2003. The chairman said:

In that case a decision is still awaited, but it is not clear how an adjudicator would come to have the experience necessary to make a forensic judgment, nor the extent
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of that particular adjudicator's medical knowledge, although he was permitted to attack the Medical Foundation expert who had written the report before him for failing adequately to explain her conclusion.

The Medical Foundation says that it cannot predict whether those two cases would have been successful under the Bill's terms or how the courts would have made a decision on referring them back. It shows that no-win/no-fee is a gamble and that, although there are serious doubts about the way in which such cases were decided, no one has any idea whether the applicants would have had the right to pursue their claims if this system had been in operation.

With the Medical Foundation's experience and that of other agencies referred to, we are looking at a situation where the rights of asylum applicants who may have had the experience of torture will be seriously undermined. I am sure that your Lordships would not want that to happen.

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