Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I am always grateful to my noble friend. I also want to clarify a matter so that I can get it on the record. I have a note about the 19,600 students. These are the students that would be affected by the amendment. It could not apply to the group identified by my noble friend Lady Blackstone, as the amendment states that they must have applied before 1 August 2005. So it is exactly the group that would be dealt with by the amendment. I want to make that clear.
I understand what my noble friend says, but our position is that we are working with universities to ensure that they make the decisions that they think are right for their institutions.
8 Jun 2004 : Column 196
Time and again in your Lordships' House we have amendments that try and take out slices of money from this pot and give it to the control of either the Secretary of State or someone else. I have been completely consistent in trying to resist those attempts and saying that either one gives the institutions the responsibilities or that one does not. In this context we wish the institutions to make those decisions based on their best interests and in discussion with their students and applicants about what might be best for them. That may not be where some noble Lords feel we should be, but I think that it is a consistent position from that point of view.
Lord Dearing: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, I should be grateful for her help because I am finding it difficult to follow precisely where we are going. Is the universities' position that they would like the Government to take the decision for them that they cannot raise the fees for students who take a gap year, rather than take the decision themselves? That seems to me to be the issue. Do the universities want to take the decision or are they saying to the Government, "No, take it for us. We will do without the money"?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, effectively I think that would be the position.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, I am really disappointed by the Minister's response. I hope that I will not in any way damage her ministerial career by saying that throughout the passage of the Bill I have found her very amenable and open to argument. There are matters of principle and policy which are central to the Government's objectives. But on issues of detail, where there were anomalies arising from what is a fundamental and major change, she has usually been quite willing to listen to argument.
Here we have something which affectswe can argue about the numbersmany tens of thousands of students. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, spoke very eloquently and, I think, with considerable justification about the effect on people from poorer families and the disadvantage that they will suffer. I mentioned the benefits that could come for wealthier people.
Those students who happen, through no fault of their own, to be in this particular year cohort who do not take gap years are still going to find it more difficult to get the places they want at universities. It seems a very small matter. It is an anomaly created by the change in the system. The fact that the Minister is not prepared to give an inch on this or to listen to the pleas fromand I was extremely grateful for the support of Universities UKall parties and from the Cross Benches, suggests to me that perhaps some of the noble Baroness's colleagues have not given this matter the required consideration.
So on this occasion I think that I need to test the opinion of the House. Should the House decide to support the amendment, I hope that the Government
8 Jun 2004 : Column 197
may look to find some accommodation for this problem. The amendment may not be perfect in every respect but the problem is there and is one that needs to be addressed.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 8) shall be agreed to?
*Their Lordships divided: Contents, 143; Not-Contents, 132.
Division No. 3
CONTENTS
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chadlington, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Falkland, V.
Feldman, L.
Flather, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Freyberg, L.
Garden, L.
Geddes, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Hamwee, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Haskins, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Laird, L.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tordoff, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vinson, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Windlesham, L.
Wolfson, L.
NOT-CONTENTS
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Billingham, B.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bragg, L.
Bridges, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Cameron of Lochbroom, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dearing, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fitt, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gregson, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harrison, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jones, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Lockwood, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar, C.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Palmer, L.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Radice, L.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rogan, L.
Rooker, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Strabolgi, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Wilson of Dinton, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
8 Jun 2004 : Column 199
8 Jun 2004 : Column 199
[*The Tellers for the Contents reported 143; the Clerks recorded 142 names.]
Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
[Amendments Nos. 9 to 14 not moved.]
Clause 24 [Regulations under section 23(6) relating to basic or higher amount]: