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Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury, the noble Lords, Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Forsyth, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth who have spoken in favour of the amendment. It was helpful to have the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, although they were not quite as helpful as others.
I hope that your Lordships will accept the challenge. Reference has been made to remuneration and incentive. I have never thought that there was anything wrong with an incentive—people have to live whatever the position is in the scheme. The beauty of the
22 Jun 2004 : Column 1142
different stages of a Bill is that it gives one an opportunity to speak to experts in the field. I understand, for example, that VSO pays people at the rate paid in that country and they do not bring any money home.
So there will need to be remuneration, but it will be fairly low. I suppose that if I had worked up the scheme in absolute detail it would have been attacked in absolute detail. The Government have an army of people who are very good at writing documents which eventually become schemes and so on. If they have difficulties I will offer to help. It may well be that other noble Lords would offer to help and we could create a really good scheme.
I feel that noble Lords would like to give such a scheme a fair wind. I should therefore like to test the opinion of the House.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 145; Not-Contents, 155.
Addington, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Garden, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greaves, L.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Home, E.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kalms, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lindsay, E.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Michie of Gallanach, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Plumb, L.
Portsmouth, Bp.
Prior, L.
Quinton, L.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L. [Teller]
Rotherwick, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheppard of Didgemere, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Waddington, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carter, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dearing, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fitt, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Gregson, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haskins, L.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Kilclooney, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Monson, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Moser, L.
Nicol, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Palmer, L.
Patel, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Quirk, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rix, L.
Rogan, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Simon, V.
Slim, V.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stallard, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Wilson of Dinton, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
22 Jun 2004 : Column 1144
Clause 27 [Condition that may be required to be imposed by Higher Education Funding Council for Wales]:
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Carter): My Lords, before calling Amendment No. 2, I should point out that it has been misprinted. The last line should read:
Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn: moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 13, line 45, at end insert—
"(d) to ensure that, in respect of any qualifying course, no qualifying fees are charged to any eligible student for any academic year beyond the first three years of a degree course."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to dissolve the proposed grouping and speak to Amendment No. 2 now and Amendment No. 15 in its place when it is called. I hope that that will be for the convenience of the House. My reasoning is that I have learnt that a number of noble Lords have reservations about Amendment No. 2 but are much happier with Amendment No. 15, so I shall not deal further with Amendment No. 15 at present.
22 Jun 2004 : Column 1145
Amendment No. 2 relates to Wales, which is why it becomes more complicated than might otherwise be the case. Your Lordships will recall that on Report precisely the same wording was carried as an amendment proposed by my noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lord Skelmersdale. It was proposed to Clause 24:
It therefore had the effect that students on a first degree course lasting for more than three years—such as not only medics, vets and architects but many studying four-year courses in science and engineering at many universities—would be required to pay top-up fees only for the first three years of their course, not subsequently. That amendment was carried in relation to England.
When we reach Amendment No. 15, I will point out that the amendment carried on Report left the burden of paying those fees on universities, whereas Amendment No. 15 would place that burden on the Secretary of State. But for the moment, Amendment No. 2 would introduce provisions to Clause 27:
to establish a symmetry between the situation in Wales and that in England. Although I am no expert on higher education in Wales, it seems inequitable that students at Welsh universities should be expected to pay top-up fees for fourth, fifth or even sixth years for a first degree course whereas, in the Bill as already amended, students at English universities are not expected so to do.
That is the purpose of the amendment. I beg to move.
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