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Baroness Lockwood: My Lords, as I have tabled amendments in support of the principle that the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, has mentioned, perhaps I may say how much I welcome the two amendments tabled by my noble friend. Not only are they a signal, as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth said in an earlier debate, they underwrite the principle of part-time education in the Bill so that we now know that it is an important part of government policy.

The amendments will strengthen the hand of the Minister's department when it deals with HEFCE in relation to financial assistance for part-time education, particularly for Birkbeck and the Open University, but also for better facilities throughout the system. It is important that the Government grasp the opportunity that they have given themselves in the Bill, and make clear to HEFCE that this is a prime part of government policy and strategy that it should take on board when considering the position of the Open University and Birkbeck and completing its wider
 
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review of part-time education. I hope that the Government will press the advantage that they now have.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, the noble Baroness has put it very nicely. We all welcome the inclusion of a signal in the Bill. It would have been extraordinary to exclude from the Bill any mention of part-time students. However, the Government have not done much except to give a signal and to create a possibility. They have done nothing in response to those of us who pointed out the threat to the Open University and Birkbeck because of the Bill.

The Open University has written to me—and, I expect to other noble Lords—to point out that largely nothing has changed for it. There is a threat that if it increases its fees it will lose nine-tenths of its undergraduate students. The Minister always looks as though she does not believe that, but I have seen the figures and can assure her that it is a serious point that she must take on board. I suspect that Birkbeck is in a similar position, although it has not written directly to me.

The Minister has done nothing about those two urgent points. Money is needed now to go direct to those two universities because of what the Government are doing in the Bill. Unless they do that, the Government will find that the university that they created will have virtually disappeared. I hope that they are not sanguine about that.

Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I thank the Minister very much for the changes. At least now we have an acknowledgment that part-time higher education exists. However, I re-echo the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour. I have also received the letter to which she referred and seen the figures. I fear that the situation remains and that urgent action is still needed.

I spent the morning chairing a seminar on equal pay in higher education. One of the points raised was the duty of equal opportunities between the sexes that will be imposed on public services. Women may form a much greater percentage of part-time students at the Open University, in which case there might be yet another reason for the Minister to think carefully about those 40 per cent of students, many of whom are at Birkbeck and the Open University.

Lord Rogan: My Lords, I welcome the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton of Upholland. I am not sure whether I am declaring an interest or boasting, but I attended the Open University, during which time my wife was also a student. Over the five years of part-time study and full-time employment, we produced between us two degrees and two bonny baby boys. So, I am very conscious of the good work performed by the Open University, and others.

(2)Much of the debate has revolved around— rightly so—the full-time university institutions. This
 
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legislation is set to generate around £1 million in extra funding for English universities, but not one penny will go to either the Open University or Birkbeck College. The Open University has been overlooked in this legislation, and the Government must now listen to and address these concerns. The Open University provides an accessible educational service for part-time and mature students who work full time, and those whose needs are matched by the option to learn from home.

The Open University has asked the Government to ensure that it is not disadvantaged financially by this legislation in comparison to other universities. It has made its case to HEFCE for additional funding, to ensure that the resources available to it to teach part-time undergraduates are not less than those available to other universities to teach full-time students, taking the fees and the grants together.

Basically, the Open University needs an interim funding allocation to ensure that it can compete in the market place at this time of change. In the long term, the Government must think hard about how the Open University and Birkbeck can continue to provide their essential educational facilities to those who opt not to take the conventional university path. The new fee regime for full-time universities will be introduced in 2006, but HEFCE says that the earliest that it will be able to introduce any new funding methodology as a result of the review will be 2007. Consequently, this leaves part-time institutions in a precarious position compared to full- time universities, which will be able to plan and prepare for the future.

Furthermore, the very nature of the Open University means that if it wishes to remain open it cannot simply raise fees to the equivalent of £3,000 a year in line with the other universities. This will simply not be affordable to a great number of those who take the part-time option. I ask the Government to look again at this position and help the Open University.

Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords—

Baroness Seccombe: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I, too, welcome these amendments, which we see as a welcome first step to tackling these proposed worrying circumstances that part-timers find themselves in. I thank the Minister for bringing the amendments before us today, and we look to her to confirm that the ongoing discussions will continue with all the institutions to address the serious matters that they face.

Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, I rise to thank the Minister most sincerely for giving effect to the requests made at the previous stage. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Together with other noble Lords who have Open University links, I have had a letter that is somewhat bleak in looking at what will be done.

I have sufficient confidence and faith in the Minister and in her ministerial colleagues, and sufficient political savvy, to recognise that in this House it will not be a political matter; it will be an all-party matter
 
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for those who have accepted the good faith of the Minister. If there is any lesson to be learned, I am delighted, as an ex-Open University student and graduate, to find that there is support in depth all around the House, not just for the Open University or for Birkbeck but for the ethos of part-time education.

The Minister will take careful note of the reservations and caveats that have been mentioned. She will recognise that as we continue to be briefed by others, including the Open University, we will not hesitate to come back to this House and find a device of one kind or another to express that point of view. After the previous debate on this matter, I am satisfied that the Minister and her colleagues appreciate that there is a case to be answered. They have answered it by the words in this amendment. If it turns out that that does not do the trick, we will—without malice but with a great deal of forethought—come back again.

I was heartened by the Minister's words on the previous occasion. The agitation from the Open University then was about the timetable for the review, the survey and so on. There was a gap year, but, as I heard the Minister, that disappeared when we last dealt with this matter. If the point at which the Open University could be in trouble were removed, that would solve the problem. However, we will have to wait and see. I have confidence that when the survey is carried out by HEFCE it will find that the part-time student institutions—led by Birkbeck and the Open University; but not them exclusively, there are others—deserve a better crack of the whip.

I thank the Minister for what she has done, and I thank her for her attention to the matter. As I said, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. I hope that we will hear from the Open University in particular that it is satisfied that what is needed to safeguard it as an institution will be taken care of. As a noble Lord said in this debate, it is precious to the Labour party that the Open University was started, but it is not a party matter. There were some queries at the beginning, but it is now accepted by all parties as one of the finest institutions in the world.

Tonight I will have the pleasure, along with other Labour colleagues, of warmly welcoming Mary Wilson, the wife of Harold Wilson, when the Labour Peers have a party on the Terrace. If there is a vote between 6 p.m. and 8 p.m., rest assured that we will be well represented. Mary Wilson is an embodiment of the Open University and all that it did, and there will be others. The Minister should be glad of the warm welcome for the efforts that she has made. She has done what she said she would do at the last meeting. Whether that is enough remains to be seen.

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