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Lord Morgan: My Lords, I declare an interest as a former vice-chancellor of the University of Wales and of Aberystwyth.
is a famous phrase from the American Revolution. This seems to be a case of "Give me liberty or give me devolution". As Tom Paine observed, I am for liberty. Although I sit on these Benches, I am not a politician; I am a life-long academic and I have always supported devolution.
There are two aspects of devolution to which I should like to refer. Noble Lords may not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, with whom I invariably agree on these matters. First, this is a case of devolution within Wales as well as a case of devolution in relation to Wales and Westminster. Devolution has always been said to rest on a consensual attitude, but
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this policy is part of a programme which is being imposed upon the universities and institutions of Wales.
I have spoken to many vice-chancellors over the past few days and we have had communications from the higher education body in Wales representing vice-chancellors and principals. They are totally opposed to the implications of this policy, as my noble friend Lady Warwick said. They are also deeply apprehensive that it makes Wales, in various ways, less free than England. The supreme quality of a university is its freedom. That matters more to me than anything else. I have spent my life as a university teacher and it seems to me that a lack of freedom from overt—and, even more, from covert—interference is very dangerous.
There are implications in the broader provisions for higher education which arouse suspicion, particularly in regard to the amalgamation of institutions where pressure has been imposed. When I was in Aberystwyth there were two amalgamations, but they were carried out by free, autonomous institutions. We cannot have it both ways. Universities are either free, autonomous institutions, or they are not.
There has been a good deal of double talk in these matters. In this case, the universities in Wales feel that they are not given the same degree of freedom. They have already raised grave concerns about funding and whether or not the possible gap in 2006–07 will be made up. They have grounds for believing that they will be more regulated. After reading the letter from the National Assembly Minister, Jane Davidson, which many of us have received, I am quite glad that I am not now a vice chancellor and subjected to such a degree of interference and regulation.
I suspect that my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies will take a different view—which is rather like arguing against God, as far as I am concerned—but, with great respect and great regret, I feel that academic freedom and academic autonomy are threatened, that Wales will suffer and that the Welsh higher education system, which has been one of the glories of our nation since the late 19th century, is likely to diminish. I hope that the Government will think very seriously about the amendment.
The Lord Bishop of Portsmouth: My Lords, I do not argue against God very often. If a DNA test were carried out on me, I do not think it would reveal any Welsh or English blood in my veins.
Having supported the Liberal Democrat amendment on voluntary work, I rise to support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Roberts. It relates to the complex issue of the balance between what is right to be devolved and the national educational policy, as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, indicated.
In my view, the Bill appears to have become the victim of what might be called the negative side of well-intentioned positive discrimination and needs to be rectified. In other words, as it stands, the Bill would involve undue interference in Welsh institutions. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, I very much hope
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that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, will be accepted. If the will of the House is to be tested, I hope that the amendment will be agreed to.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, I am in favour of liberty and devolution and I respect the views of the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, very much indeed. However, I believe that it is not right necessarily to assume that the Education Secretary in the Welsh Assembly Government is the most popular person in Wales. I know that to be not a fact.
The principles outlined in Amendment No. 6 give rise to an interesting situation, as my noble friend Lord Thomas said. As currently drafted, Clause 32(2) relates specifically to England. This is an England and Wales Bill and matters relating to higher education are specific to the Secretary of State in England and the Welsh Assembly Government in Wales. We agree with Clause 32(2) because it is consistent with the devolution settlement, and Clause 32(3) spells out what should apply in Wales. Indeed, it places duties on the Welsh Assembly Government either to promote equality of opportunity or to promote higher education. My noble friend Lady Sharp has tabled Amendment No. 8, which seeks to put that right. We are confronted with an interesting situation. We would obviously prefer that the Bill did both.
The principle of devolution is very important. Amendment No. 7 seeks to strike out specific reference to Wales and therefore goes against the principle of devolution. We oppose the deletion of Clause 32(3) and we will vote against Amendment No. 7 for this reason.
However, a great many issues arise. My noble friend Lord Thomas made the point that although we are consistent in our attitude to devolution, that does not necessarily mean that we agree with what might happen to higher education under the present Minister for Education in the Welsh Assembly Government.
I should like the Minister to consider several matters. In Wales, equality of opportunity is very important and should be essential, not just an option. Why is this? Will she explain why the Welsh Assembly Government want this distinction?
Secondly, is there a price tag connected specifically with the word "promotion"? Thirdly, will promotion as specified in the Bill be used as a means of amalgamating a number of university colleges and higher education establishments in Wales, which has been hinted at by several contributors to this debate? Fourthly, will moneys be withheld from establishments that do not comply with the diktat of the Welsh Assembly Government's Education Minister if she so desires them to amalgamate?
There are also wider questions. What impact would this measure have on the federal university colleges of the University of Wales? Indeed, the Government will know that the right honourable Dafydd Wigley has been appointed by the University of Wales to produce a report into its constitution. I have not seen that
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report and I do not know whether it has been published yet, but it might have an impact on what we are discussing.
What measures will the Government take to redress the substantial under-funding gap, to which the noble Lord, Lord Morgan, referred, between the higher education sector in England and that in Wales? Historically, Wales has fallen short by approximately £300 per student in comparison with England, and I believe that the gap may be greater at the present time. Clearly, it has an impact on equality. The Government should surely provide equality of funding for both England and Wales, as well as equality of opportunity for students to access higher education in Wales. If the Welsh Assembly wants to go ahead, I would like to know whether it has said that it wishes to use promotion as a means of getting additional funding to force higher education establishments in Wales to amalgamate. That would be extremely foolish of the Welsh Assembly because of the geography of Wales and the paucity of physical communications—it is practically impossible to get Bangor to amalgamate with the North East Wales Institute of Higher Education or Trinity College Carmarthen to amalgamate with the University of Wales, Swansea.
There are many issues that need to be raised. If the Welsh Assembly in Cardiff is foolish enough to pursue this path, as my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford said, it should have the freedom to do so. However, the electorate in Wales will deliver a verdict that will not be favourable to the Welsh Assembly government.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, I would like to clarify one point. The speech by the Minister, Jane Davidson, to which I referred, was made on 9 June and actually states that the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales,
"will take a much more proactive approach to delivering on the reconfiguration agenda. For a sector with a large number of relatively small institutions, funding will continue to be available for mergers. However, I shall also be looking to promote innovative ways of working to enable the sector to take forward other forms of collaboration".
There is not much doubt about the Government's intentions.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, I accept what the noble Lord says. It is obviously correct. However, if the Minister is unwise enough to pursue this course, frankly, judgment will be made by the people of Wales.
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