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Baroness Crawley: My Lords, I beg to move that the proceedings after Third Reading be now adjourned until five minutes past nine o'clock.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Scottish Parliament (Constituencies) Bill
Schedule 1 [Substitution of Schedule 1 to the Scotland Act 1998]:
The Duke of Montrose moved Amendment No. 1:
"( ) For the purposes of sub-paragraphs (9) and (11), references to "Parliament" do not mean the Scottish Parliament (as defined by section 126(1) of the Scotland Act 1998 (c. 46)) but refer to the Parliament of the United Kingdom."
The noble Duke said: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his detailed reply to a large number of my concerns at Committee stage. Perhaps I should beg the forgiveness of your Lordships as, for those who have seen the noble Lord's letter, some of my amendments will seem a little dated. They were tabled before I received his letter, which he sent me on 30 June. This could be partly my fault, as I do not have a secretary in Westminster to check my mail when I am not here. The internal mail seems occasionally
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to emulate second-class post, and as nothing had appeared by early Thursday afternoon, I caught up with the letter only yesterday.
It was particularly useful that he pinned down for us that the Scottish Parliament will provide accommodation for 105 MSPs and their staff. I am not sure whether there has been a reappraisal of the needs of the staff, but I understand some of the inquiries have shown that the first estimate for the building was for some 16,000 square metres, which later had to be revised to 23,000 square metres, and now stands at 31,000 square metres. Whatever else, it must surely be adequate for the purpose.
The amendment once more raises the issue I brought up at Committee stage as to whether references relate to the Scottish Parliament or to our Westminster Parliament here. On reading the Minister's answer about references to "Parliament", I find myself somewhat perplexed. Clause 3 of the Bill talks about "money provided by Parliament"—that is, as the Minister assured me, this Parliament and not the Scottish one. I then mentioned the reference in Schedule 1 to the laying of the Electoral Commission's report before Parliament. The Minister confirmed that my interpretation was correct, and that the schedule referred to the Westminster Parliament. However, he then went on to explain that, as Schedule 1 replaced Schedule 1 to the Scotland Act 1998, definitions would follow those set out in Section 126 of that Act, where references to the "the Parliament" mean the Scottish Parliament.
These two statements seem to be contradictory, and for the purposes of clarity I have tabled Amendment No. 1 to make absolutely clear how "Parliament" is to be understood in sub-paragraphs (9) and (11). If Section 126(1) of the Scotland Act defines "Parliament" as the Scottish Parliament, surely we need to make certain that, for these references in Schedule 1, it is the national Parliament at Westminster, and not the Scottish Parliament, before which the Electoral Commission should lay its report. I beg to move.
The Earl of Mar and Kellie: My Lords, I regret to say to the noble Duke that I think his amendment is wrong. I am happy with the idea that the expression "the Parliament" means the Scottish Parliament. I also think, in terms of the content, that it would be entirely right for the Electoral Commission to report to the Scottish Parliament about Scottish parliamentary constituencies.
Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, unfortunately for the noble Earl, what we are discussing is what the Government mean in the Bill, not what the noble Earl would like it to mean. That being the case, the clarity here is extremely important. When we are talking about who does what, and whether one Parliament or the other pays, or has to decide, or has orders laid before it, it is essential that the Bill is completely clear. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, who replied at the last stage, and admitted that parliamentary draftsmen often thought things were a bit clearer than other people thought they were, or words to that effect. It is absolutely right to try to clarify this matter. I hope
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the Minister has had permission to accept this amendment, or to clarify to some extent what is meant, because the answer we had before was fairly convoluted, and this is an important point.
Lord Evans of Temple Guiting: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, the noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour, for their comments.
I say at the outset that the letter of the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, was an attempt to clarify what has been a confusing issue. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy, that the matter should be absolutely clear. I hope that during the next couple of minutes I can clarify matters to the satisfaction of the House. I, too, was slightly confused but, after reading carefully my speaking note, I saw the light. I hope that noble Lords will see the light as well.
As I say, we have sympathy with the noble Duke's concern to have clear legislation and ease of reference for those who have to use it. However, on this occasion I believe that some of the apparent difficulties may arise from the nature and purpose of the Bill not being wholly appreciated. The Bill is not a freestanding measure. We have to understand that the Bill simply replaces Schedule 1 to the Scotland Act in its entirety, I should emphasise, rather than by making specific textual amendments to the existing schedule, precisely because the draftsman saw this as the most satisfactory way to achieve clarity and readability. Since the new schedule will substitute the existing one to the Scotland Act, it has to be understood and interpreted within the context of that Act as a whole.
The noble Duke said in Committee that for ease of reference and the saving of time, the Bill's architects should ensure that throughout the Bill reference to "Parliament" should mean Westminster. Otherwise, where it did not, it should be qualified. I can reassure the noble Duke and other noble Lords that that is in fact the approach taken in the Bill, although we concede that it may not be quite as obvious as he would wish.
All references to "Parliament", without the definite article prefixed, are to be understood following established usage in legislation as referring to the United Kingdom Parliament. However, as my noble friend Lord Filkin explained in Committee, under the interpretation provision in the Scotland Act, at Section 126(1), any references to "the Parliament"—that is, with the definite article prefixed—are to be interpreted as meaning the Scottish Parliament.
I know that that may not provide sufficient clarity to assuage the noble Duke, but I hope he will accept that at least there is a system of differentiation in operation within the Scotland Act—without having to look outside the legislation itself—which consistently distinguishes between the Westminster and Scottish Parliaments.
I now turn specifically to the effect of this amendment. I have to point out—in the light of the explanation provided above—that if it were accepted, the amendment would in fact relate both provisions to
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the United Kingdom Parliament. However, this would defeat the intention of paragraph 3(11), which is to ensure that the Electoral Commission's report is put before the Scottish Parliament at the same time as it is submitted to the Secretary of State. So, if the amendment were accepted, the currently existing duty to inform the Scottish Parliament directly of recommended changes to its constituencies would be deleted. We believe that that would be a most serious discourtesy.
As I said earlier, I understand and have sympathy with the noble Duke's concerns here, but a consistent approach has been adopted in the drafting of this Bill—although perhaps a very subtle one—and the amendment itself would upset the purpose of the provision that it would affect. I hope that with that explanation the noble Duke will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, I am very interested in the noble Lord's reply which, so far as I can see, has given a whole new power and meaning to the word "the". In Committee I suggested that sub-paragraph (11) should include the words "Scottish Parliament" in order to make it slightly more obvious. Sub-paragraph (11) refers to "the Parliament" but it is interesting to discover that this is a matter of differentiation.
It is a great relief to hear that the Minister was correct in referring us to the definition in Section 126(1) of the Scotland Act, because the way the argument was developing, it sounded horribly as if he had given the wrong definition. However, I believe that rather more notice will have to be taken of the difference between "Parliament" and "the Parliament". In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
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