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Viscount Astor: My Lords, I have to say to the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, that I am somewhat confused by her party's position. Simon Hughes in his manifesto said:
"Decision would ultimately be decided by a vote in a local ballot of registered electors in the possible extension areas".
If the noble Baroness, or anyone else had said that the 50 per cent threshold is a bit too high but we accept the principle, I would understand that argument. We could debate that, and at least we would understand the point about letting local people have some say in local democracy. It pains me that the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, should think that my amendment is mischievous. It is far from it. He said that consultation matters, but the problem with the Mayor's consultation is that it does not work. Three-million letters were sent out and he had a 3 per cent return. Let us say that half of those were in favour and half were against. That means that 1.5 per cent of the people who responded will be taken into account when deciding major changes in London. That is not good enough.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, talked about local democracy. I sympathise as he has unfortunately met local democracy head on. Perhaps it will give him an opportunity to spend more time in the House. We certainly welcome his presence here. His argument seemed to be that if the local borough did not agree, one should extend it and ask the borough next door. If it does not agree, one should go further and ask the one next door to that. Eventually if one goes far enough, one is bound to get a majority. That does not work either.
Lord Harris of Haringey: My Lords, that is a travesty of my argument. I said that there are people who are profoundly affected by the congestion charge who would not get the benefit of the subsidy that would be given to the residents of Kensington and Chelsea in any putative extension of the zone. They are excluded by the terms of the amendment.
Viscount Astor: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Harris, is very much misguided if he thinks that the only reason why people are in favour or against the
8 Jul 2004 : Column 981
congestion charge in their area is because of financial incentive. That is nonsense. There are wider and more important issues that affect local people and businesses. The noble Lord should support my amendment if we follow his logic because he is assuming that because someone in a borough receives 95 per cent discount he will automatically support the congestion charge. His argument falls flat on its face.
The noble Lords, Lord Faulkner and Lord Davies, seemed to think that the only issue on which the two mayoral candidates fought was the congestion charge. I admit that I did not read every manifesto as closely as perhaps I should—of course, I read ours very carefully—but my brief glances showed that there were other issues. To say that the result of the recent election was solely because of the congestion charge is extraordinary. There was the recent convert—the returnee to the noble Lord's party. We must respect that. The election was not won solely on the basis of the congestion charge.
I hope that your Lordships will accept the principle of my amendment. I accept that we could debate the 50 per cent. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, misreads my amendment. It does not mean that there would have to be an instant referendum anywhere there is a congestion charge. This is about keeping local democracy with local boroughs in London. That is what is important.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 21) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 90; Not-Contents, 132.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Biffen, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Chadlington, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Deedes, L.
Denham, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Freeman, L.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goschen, V.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kalms, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Mancroft, L.
May of Oxford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Prior, L.
Rawlings, B.
Renton, L.
Rotherwick, L. [Teller]
St John of Fawsley, L.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Trenchard, V.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Windlesham, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Blood, B.
Borrie, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dholakia, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L. [Teller]
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fitt, L.
Garden, L.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Gilbert, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Moser, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Ouseley, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sandberg, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sewel, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Snape, L.
Stallard, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tordoff, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Walmsley, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
8 Jul 2004 : Column 983
Lord Hanningfield moved Amendment No. 22:
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