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Addington, L.
Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blaker, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Cuckney, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Fearn, L.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greenway, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lindsay, E.
Liverpool, E.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Moynihan, L.
Newby, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
O'Cathain, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Plumb, L.
Rawlings, B.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roper, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Swinfen, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tordoff, L.
Trumpington, B.
Ullswater, V.
Waddington, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Windlesham, L.
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar, C.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Moran, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prosser, B.
Radice, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Slim, V.
Snape, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
12 Jul 2004 : Column 1054
[Amendments Nos. 10 and 11 not moved.]
Lord Hanningfield moved Amendment No. 12:
"( ) In its application to Wales, this section has effect with the omission of the words "or by the Secretary of State" in subsection (3)(a) and the omission of subsections (4) and (5)."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, it is clearly evident that this amendment has a degree of cross-party support, at least from the opposition Benches. We can but hope that some of this understanding rubs off on to noble Lords opposite.
Amendment No. 12 seeks to remove the power for the National Assembly to appoint some of the members of combined fire authorities in Wales, leaving that power in the hands of the county and county borough councils. This issue was debated at some length in Committee. The Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Evans, replied that the Assembly should have such a power because it is being given to the Secretary of State in England. He went on to mention that the Assembly was under no obligation actually to
12 Jul 2004 : Column 1055
use the power. However, the case for giving such powers to the Assembly fails to take into account the different legal framework in Wales.
Under Section 113 of the Government of Wales Act 1998 the Assembly has to have a scheme that sets out how it proposes,
Perhaps we should have a similar rule here.
My argument is that the creation of a new power for the Assembly to appoint members of combined fire authorities is inconsistent with the Assembly's local government scheme. Such a power weakens local government. It would potentially diminish local government's accountability and autonomy. Furthermore, I am not aware of any policy document from the Welsh Assembly that advocates or justifies the creation of a power for it to appoint fire authority members. This provision in the Bill has not been appropriately foreshadowed, which has denied Welsh local government and the Welsh fire authorities the chance to express views on the matter before the Bill was introduced. The need for this power in Wales should be tested and explained before the House agrees that it is required. I beg to move.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, I rise to support my noble friend and the points that he made with regard to the position in Wales referred to in Amendment No. 12 to Clause 3.
As I understand it, as the Bill stands the Assembly will have a similar right to the Secretary of State in England to nominate up to half the members of a combined fire and rescue authority. This will obviously be at the expense of local authority nominations. This invasive power has caused some concern among local authorities. As my noble friend pointed out, they say that it runs contrary to the obligation on the Assembly under Section 113 of the Government of Wales Act,
I admit that the local authority nominees have a special position under subsection (5), in that a precept must be approved by a majority of them. However, in a sense that only begs the question why should there be any Assembly nominees at all on the combined authority.
I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, refer to the circumstances in which the Secretary of State or, I assume, the Assembly make such appointments, and I still find myself somewhat confused on the precise circumstances in which either exercises their power. My noble friend Lady Hanham said that the power was likely to be exercised from day one.
It is suspected that there is a centralist tendency in the Assembly. We have seen that in relation to not only this Bill but others, such as the Higher Education Bill and the draft transport Bill to name but two. There is a reluctance to devolve beyond the devolved body itself—to other authorities, including local authorities.
12 Jul 2004 : Column 1056
As my noble friend said, there is no mention of the proposed power being given to the Assembly in last year's White Paper, Our Fire and Rescue Service, or in any other policy document emanating from the Welsh Assembly Government. The proposal has come out of the blue, without consultation or anyone being given a chance to comment.
The Assembly has confirmed that it has no plans to make changes to the three existing authorities, but that is irrelevant to the issue before us. Why has the Assembly got to have the power to nominate? Is it to overcome local authority opposition to a new combined authority? The reasoning behind it should at least be explained, along with the encroachment on what is, after all, traditional local authority territory.
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