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Lord Rooker: My Lords, I think that the short answer based on the note I have—I shall give a considered reply—is that we want it to happen, but that we do not think it should be a statutory duty. The amendment would create a new duty on all fire and rescue authorities to make provision to deliver emergency medical assistance where the fire and rescue service personnel are first on the scene of an incident in relation to which they have functions under the various parts of the Bill.
In determining the level of provision, each fire and rescue authority would have to take account of what was reasonable, including the likely number of incidents attended and the period of time before the arrival of specialist medical staff. Each fire and rescue authority would also be required to consult the NHS ambulance trust operating in its area at least once every two years.
We debated at some length the same amendment in Grand Committee. I fully accept that it is right to bring it back, but I will only repeat the arguments. We recognise the underlying aim of the amendment. We would like it to happen, but it should not be a statutory duty. The Government's view is that to extend the duties in this statutory way as proposed would be unhelpful.
It goes without saying that the aim of the emergency service response is to reduce deaths and the severity of injuries. Adopting new ways of working and co-operating more with other emergency services can greatly improve the service provided to the public. That is why we have made it clear in the draft Fire and Rescue National Framework that fire and rescue authorities should explore the benefits of working with others, including, for example, by implementing co-responder schemes.
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Under Clause 11, we are giving fire and rescue authorities the power to equip for and respond to a range of scenarios, and co-responder initiatives could form a part of that response. However, we do not believe that it would be appropriate to make it a statutory duty. It comes down to the fact that in this House, from the point of view of being at the centre, we have to trust people at the locality running the schemes to make their best judgment. They will depend on many factors, and they will have responsibility for delivering the schemes. We think they should determine this issue.
Clause 11 will remove any doubt about the power of fire and rescue authorities to instruct staff to implement such powers. We have made it clear that the final decision should be made locally.
Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, perhaps I may intervene. I particularly asked not necessarily for the provision to be on the face of the Bill, but for guidance regarding Clause 11 to be stronger, because it could obviously save lives. Will the Minister comment on the guidance on Clause 11?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I shall do so when I come to it. I am trying to give a full response. I shall give a response to the noble Lord's point. This is an important part of the Bill and I want to place a couple more paragraphs on the record for people following our proceedings.
For their own health and safety, firefighters have emergency first aid expertise which encompasses life saving skills. These are skills that firefighters already provide, where appropriate, to injured members of the public at the scene of an incident before the ambulance service arrives.
However, responsibility for ensuring reasonable provision of emergency first aid and pre-hospital care rests with the Secretary of State for Health through the ambulance service. We do not want two emergency services prepared and trained to deliver medical assistance.
I turn to the noble Lord's point. The national framework encourages fire and rescue authorities to work with other services. We will highlight the scope of Clause 11 to authorities when offering guidance on the provisions of the Bill. So it will be clearly there in the guidance and in the Act if the Bill gets enacted, which I suspect it probably will.
Baroness Hanham: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, where the fire and rescue service arrives first on the scene of a really serious accident and someone is in the process of having or has had a heart attack, are the members of the fire and rescue service who are able to do so entitled to take action to help that person? Every shop, business and office has people trained to a very high degree in first aid and including the use of defibrillators. I am not aware that they are restricted to dealing only with their staff. Are those who are already appropriately trained in the fire and rescue service able
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to deal with an emergency when they arrive at an accident without necessarily having to wait for the paramedics or the ambulance to arrive, thereby saving people's lives by using their skills? Are they able to do that?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, one cannot describe the circumstances because the implication is that there is no fire—this is a road traffic accident. A fire could be raging. The fire service arrives to put the fire out and save lives and buildings. Let us be clear that saving lives is more important than saving buildings. But if they can give first-aid treatment in advance of the paramedics arriving they are able to do so. They are not banned from doing so. Sometimes they carry equipment in their appliances which would assist them.
That is not always necessarily the case. But there is no ban on people helping other people. Firefighters going to fight a fire may find people who they are able to assist before the paramedics arrive. There is no ban on them helping in that way. The amendment seems to make it a statutory duty to carry the equipment and have the training. It is best left to the local fire authorities in conjunction with partnership arrangements and co-responder schemes to make those kinds of arrangements in a formal way, but there is nothing to stop them assisting people in the circumstances the noble Baroness explained.
Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I know I should not keep standing up at this stage, but this is an important aspect. Equally, therefore, there would not be any restriction on a fire and rescue service saying it would be normal practice, for example, to carry a defibrillator in every appliance, so that if necessary it could be used and that at least one member of every crew should be able to deal with first aid in an emergency.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, my understanding is that that is entirely within the remit of a fire and rescue service. It is not on the face of the Bill, but that is a matter that the services can decide. They are not banned from doing so by the Bill.
Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, we have had an interesting exchange between my noble friend Lady Hanham and the Minister. The noble Lord rather disturbed me. He indicated that most of the activity of the fire and rescue service concerns fires. It is not. Fires are a fairly small part of their work these days. As my noble friend said, they get to accident scenes first most of the time. Therefore, there is a potential life-saving element to all this. That is why we are keen to explore it. We have to accept what the Minister has said today. He has said that the Government will issue good guidance for Clause 11. I hope the Government will stick to that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
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Baroness Hanham moved Amendment No. 23:
"( ) An order under the section conferring a function additional to its function under sections 7 and 8 for which a fire and rescue authority must make provision, shall also provide for the payment to that authority by the Secretary of State of sums calculated to meet the capital and recurring costs of such function."
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, Amendment No. 23 provides that the Secretary of State should pay for the cost of conferring specialist responsibilities on fire and rescue authorities. When we discussed the matter in Grand Committee the Minister gave a response which was reassuring but did not address the principle of the amendment. If I explain what I mean by that, I hope the House will understand why we have returned to the subject.
The Minister reassured us by making it clear that in terms of the new dimensional work carried out in the operational environment of the fire and rescue services, the Government will fund these arrangements. The figures he gave us were £188 million over a three-year period. However, that should not disguise the fact that the Minister's reply was not satisfactory for two reasons. First, he did not address the crux of the matter, which was summed up neatly by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, with the question: while the Government may think the amendment is unnecessary in 2004, what about in 2014? We are talking about large amounts of money. There should be something in the Bill that effectively closes the loophole that would allow a government to pass off costs that are properly their responsibility on to fire and rescue authorities.
The second reason for our return to the issue is that the Minister commented that the new Bill, which, as we all know, replaces an Act now nearly 60 years old, will have a better chance of standing the test of time if it is not loaded with unnecessary detail. We have been plugging away to get a little more detail into the Bill; it would be helpful. The Minister's comment is disingenuous. The new legislation will stand the test of time if it is credible and workable; it will be so only if we can be absolutely clear who pays for what.
We must avoid the kind of clashes that we saw between central and local government over, for example, council tax rises. If the Government admit that the kind of functions conferred in Clause 9 should be paid for by central government, why risk inviting problems of uncertainty further down the line by not addressing that in the Bill? The amendment not only makes this part of the legislation fairer but also will help to head off potential arguments about financing these services in the future. I beg to move.
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