| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, I should like to begin by stating how sad it is that the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, is not present today because he has been a tireless advocate of biofuels. It is very sad that he cannot be here to discuss this measure. I am not so sure that he would be pleased to see what a monster his simple little clause has become, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Carter. It now comprises nine pages of legislation. That, of course, is another matter. Certainly, the noble Lord will welcome the fact—as, I am sure, does the whole House—that the Government have seen fit to accept this obligation and have
15 Jul 2004 : Column 1400
brought forward what I would call almost consultative legislation and put it on the face of the Bill in order to have a complete scheme, which I hope we shall see working at some stage.
I accept that all of this depends on orders which are to be brought forward, but I have one or two questions because two aspects of these new clauses cause me some concern. An administrator will have,
"power to impose charges of specified amounts on transport fuel suppliers . . . Sums received by the Administrator by virtue of provision within subsection (3)(c) must be used by him for the purpose of meeting costs".
I am afraid that I always become a little frightened when I see that someone has a power to impose charges which he can use to meet his costs. My immediate reaction is to ask where is the financial control and how do you know that that money will always be used in a very cost-effective way? The Minister may say that he cannot define that yet because the scheme does not yet exist, but I think that we should be aware that there is a possible marginal problem there. If a man can set his charges to meet his costs, he has no incentive to act in a completely businesslike way.
I turn to the new clause on renewable transport fuel certificates. It appears that these might be tradable certificates in that if someone uses "too much" green fuel, he will then have an asset that he can sell to someone else who has not met his obligation. I do not know whether that is the intention and perhaps I am misreading the way in which these new clauses are drafted. However, it appears that that might be the case.
I turn to the new clause on discharge of obligation by payment. That is well and good, but the following new clause concerns the imposition of civil penalties and states:
"An RTF order may . . . provide that a person is to be liable to a civil penalty . . . That penalty must not exceed the lesser of the specified amount; and the amount equal to ten per cent of the turnover, as determined in the specified manner, of the specified business of the defaulter".
If that applied to BP, it might result in a phenomenally large penalty. I merely mention those points as they appear in the amendments. I accept that we do not know how these measures are to be brought forward. I should have thought that if there were a question of financial discharge, there would not be a question of civil penalty. However, without some assurance on how those measures will be brought forward, it is rather difficult to know precisely how one should react to them. It is a remarkable aspect of this development that we have these new clauses, which are very welcome, but they are almost of a consultative nature in the sense that, for implementation, they depend subsequently on orders. Some things may be included and some things may not. I think that it is the first time I have ever come across this in primary legislation, but the measures are very welcome.
Lord Ezra: My Lords, I am very pleased to follow the noble Lords, Lord Carter and Lord Dixon-Smith, in welcoming this amendment. Indeed, before we finished with the Bill in this House, the noble Lord,
15 Jul 2004 : Column 1401
Lord Whitty, assured us that the Government would take the amendment very seriously but might have to amend it somewhat. It did not occur to us that the "somewhat" was going to lead to this enormous compendium.
What is pleasing about it is that the Government have now devised a way in which the problem of carbon emissions in the transport sector can be seriously dealt with. This is a point that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, made. The transport sector is an enormous emitter. There is no doubt that through technological change the degree of emissions of individual cars has much reduced, but the number of cars keeps on increasing all the time and measures of a more fundamental nature are therefore obviously required. This amendment provides the means for such measures.
I take it that what is proposed here would be consistent with the Biofuels Directive which is presently going through its various stages in Brussels, and that therefore it would be perfectly straightforward for us, if that directive were finally to come into force, to apply the measures in this amendment and that would put us in full conformity with the directive.
I conclude that this is one of a number of very beneficial effects that the debate on the Bill has had. There have been one or two aspects that we have not dealt with as satisfactorily, but I think that the satisfactory outcomes have somewhat outweighed the less satisfactory ones. I am very pleased to support the amendment.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, I thank the Minister for the measure. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Carter, has had to leave as he and noble Lords on all sides of the House tried to persuade the Government of the importance of introducing this amendment.
My noble friend Lord Dixon-Smith asked a couple of questions and I have further questions. We are in slightly unusual water at this stage. I say straight away that we are happy to accept these amendments. We welcome the way in which they address the concerns that have been raised during the various stages of the Bill's passage.
The Minister touched on my next point when he said that the new clause gives the Secretary of State the power to introduce an obligation—that is, he may do so—but it does not require him so to do. I am still a little disappointed with that phraseology. The Minister will no doubt comment on that because I am sure that the Government are committed to the measure. I accept that something may be done later rather than sooner, but some of us on this side of the House would like to have the measure more clearly defined than it is in the new clause at present. Will the Minister clarify the Government's intentions in that regard? The noble Lord, Lord Ezra, raised the important issue of how that will relate to the requirements within the EU directive.
Sitting next to the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, is the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer. She and I faced exactly the same situation when
15 Jul 2004 : Column 1402
dealing with the Water Bill. I record my dismay that we are dealing with the Bill as best we can while other directives are emerging which have a bearing on what we should be doing, but we have to discuss them at different times. They do not coincide. In future, if ever we can, it will be much better to avoid being in the situation in which we find ourselves.
Obviously I am grateful that consultation will take place, but can the Minister give me some idea of the time plan for it? When does he think that it will be completed? On what time scale will the orders come through? Is he talking in terms of six months or a year? They will need to address technical issues.
My noble friend Lord Dixon-Smith raised two specific questions that I shall not repeat, but I have a further question. I draw the Minister's attention to proposed new subsection (1) in his Amendment No. 30, in which biofuel means,
A query with that was raised with me this morning; if it had been raised yesterday, I would have tabled an amendment. It is impractical to have biofuel defined as "wholly from biomass" because it would exclude certain combinations, such as bio-ETBE, and processes, not to mention any bioethanol with a necessary admix of denaturant. Would it not be much safer to describe biofuel as "principally from biomass"? That would cover any new combinations from which we could produce biofuel.
I spoke to the Clerks, and it would be possible for me to move such an amendment and for the Minister to accept it, although it would be slightly unusual. I apologise to noble Lords; my attention was not drawn to the issue until it was too late to table an amendment. I am slightly in the Minister's hands on that issue.
I thank the Minister for all the work that has gone into the provisions. The noble Lord, Lord Carter, touched on the fact that biofuels will have enormous benefits for the farming industry at an increasingly difficult time. Biofuels, combined with the commitment to provide a strategy on micro-generation, will give our farmers another string to their bow in terms of survival and their ability to meet future environmental responsibilities. We support them.
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |