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Lord Ackner: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, could he explain on whom the onus of proof lies in his proposals? I am not concerned with the standard. The claimant brings the claim: is the onus on him to establish the situation or is it on the MoD?
Lord Bach: My Lords, under the new scheme the onus would be on the claimant but obviously on the balance of probabilities.
Lord Morris of Manchester: My Lords, I am conscious that the House will want to see the debate concluded as soon as possible. In thanking all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate, I shall not be
8 Sept 2004 : Column 589
making any personal attacks. Meanwhile, I refute utterly the implication from across the House that my noble friend is a monkey.
It has been well said of him that my noble friend shows a personal commitment to helping the ex-service community. But, of course, Ministers are not always briefed to give their personal beliefs. Indeed, they do not always speak only for their departments—the Treasury is often involved.
In regard to what my noble friend has said about the Royal British Legion, I am sure that its officers will want urgently to consider the very serious allegations made against the Legion this afternoon. As at Second Reading and in Committee, my noble friend has found himself up against almost consensual support for the purpose of my amendments. My good and noble friend Lady Dean had some reservations, which I am sure she will want to discuss, with all her customary decency, with the Legion.
My information about what happened before, during and since their meeting at the MoD on 15 July comes from men of the highest probity. The standing in the ex-service community of Colonel English, of Tom House, its pensions officer, and of its legal adviser, Peter Knight, speaks for itself.
My noble friend referred to the letter sent by the Legion. It made abundantly clear that the Government wanted to talk about the form of words to do with the changing of the burden and standard of proof. It had already been made plain by Lieutenant-General Palmer, in his letter to the Legion, that there could be no question whatever of fundamental change in the Government's position. There has been no fundamental change, as my noble friend confirmed in his reply.
It was the revelation of the figure of £200 million that gave the lie to any claim of meaningful consultation with the Legion on the department's policy on burden and standard of proof. How can it possibly be claimed that they were consulting on the issue when they had already made a studiedly precise calculation of the outcome? Who wants to be "consulted" about a fait accompli?
The Minister has not made anything even approaching a case for regarding the Royal British Legion's position as unreasonable. There was long delay on the department's side in arranging talks. Everyone who has taken any part in these debates is aware of Ivor Caplin's letter of last December, and that he was asked by the Legion whether the MoD had carried out any analysis of its own. My noble friend, again this afternoon, has criticised the analysis carried out by the Legion—but it is the only analysis in town. Instead of negatively criticising the Legion's analysis, the Government should have carried out one of their own.
I am quite certain that many ex-service people outside this House will want to consider very carefully what has been said this afternoon and more especially the very serious allegations made against men of the highest standing and probity who serve the Royal British Legion.
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I see no difference at all in the Government's position on this issue. They are talking about a changed form of words; they are not talking about any basic change on matters of substance. I must, therefore, seek the opinion of the House.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 183; Not-Contents, 128.
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Arran, E.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Ballyedmond, L.
Barker, B.
Biffen, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bowness, L.
Boyce, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Broers, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dykes, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Feldman, L.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freyberg, L. [Teller]
Garden, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Greengross, B.
Hanham, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hylton, L.
Inge, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kalms, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laidlaw, L.
Laird, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lindsay, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Manchester, L. [Teller]
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Peel, E.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Quinton, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tombs, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trumpington, B.
Vincent of Coleshill, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warnock, B.
Weatherill, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Windlesham, L.
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Blood, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Grenfell, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McCarthy, L.
McDonagh, B.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Ouseley, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prosser, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Rosser, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Snape, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Triesman, L.
Truro, Bp.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
8 Sept 2004 : Column 592
Lord Astor of Hever moved Amendment No. 2:
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