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Lord Molyneaux of Killead: My Lords, I shall be very brief. I wish to express my concern over some of the limitations in the scope of the amendment, particularly in regard to public funds. The House will not be surprised if I refer to the situation as it will affect Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland is excluded from the British Horseracing Board's Owners Premium Scheme because of an utterly outdated agreement made when there was no horse-breeding industry in Northern Ireland to speak of. For the purposes of this scheme, the BHB recognises that Northern Ireland is an "international jurisdiction" as opposed to a part of the United Kingdom.

When the previous legislation was introduced, Northern Ireland was excluded from it. With new legislation imminent, including the abolition of the Levy Board and the transfer of its role to the British Horseracing Board, it is now imperative that, as Northern Ireland and its citizens are under the jurisdiction of Great Britain and Northern Ireland—not a new phrase—the racing industry and the people who work with it in Northern Ireland are allowed to enjoy the same benefits as the rest of the United Kingdom.

Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I declare two interests, first, as a member of the shadow Racing Trust, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey; and, secondly, as a horse owner with a strong interest in horse racing, which is intended to benefit if the sale of the Tote to the Racing Trust takes place. I therefore have a strong interest in seeing the Bill passed and it resulting in the sale of the Tote to the Racing Trust.
 
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We should not forget the background to the Bill, which is that the ownership of the Tote is entirely ambiguous. Having started and built up the Tote, and never having had a penny piece of government financing, racing believes strongly that it owns the Tote and should be given it. Nevertheless, out of pragmatism, racing has accepted that it is right to enter negotiations with the Government for the transfer formulae of ownership to the Racing Trust. That requires a Bill to create the Government's ownership and the Racing Trust, thereby allowing the Government to sell it. Therein, of course, lies the problem. Having created unambiguous government ownership, the Bill leaves us in mid-air, because the Government can sell to whomever they wish.

Clearly, racing has been grateful for the manifesto commitment, but the time is fast approaching when we shall need to see that commitment become reality and that is where the problems start. While I completely accept that the Government still intend, and would like, to transfer the Tote to the Racing Trust, it is by no means clear that that will happen. Good intentions can be ambushed by all kinds of things. Difficulties could well emerge in the sale process, which has not gone very far for various reasons. For example, Europe could cause unanticipated problems. We do not know that at the moment.

The Treasury could cause problems on price. We should not discount that. It is all very well for non-Treasury Ministers to say that it is not a problem, but the Treasury will believe that it has the final say on the price. Both sides have already appointed sets of advisors. I have been involved in many commercial situations where advisors drive deals away from completion, because of the way in which they behave and the kind of issues that they expose. And, of course, the deal could fall apart because of the folly, pig-headedness or whatever of any one of the parties to it. So it is by no means clear that, the Bill having been passed unamended, the sale to the Racing Trust would take place.

However, it is possible to think about the balance of probability. We can hear optimistic statements such as that of the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, but there is no certainty in that. From the perspective of racing, how much certainty is it reasonable for it to have about the inevitability of the transfer of the Tote to the Racing Trust? That is the issue before us.

Is timing important? Clearly, sooner rather than later, would be racing's view. However, if there was a choice between losing the impossibility of the Tote being transferred outside racing in any circumstances and a little delay, I think that I could cope with a little delay. It would not be ideal, but that would be better overall for racing than losing the Tote because of inadequate protection having been built into the Bill.

I was sorry to hear the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, say that because of his special circumstances, which I do not quite understand, he would not be able to support the amendment to which he has put his name. I was disappointed to hear him, as chair of the shadow trust, say that. Those who have put so much time and effort
 
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into the transfer of the Tote to the Racing Trust would want to see much greater certainty and that has been argued for throughout. Like all other noble Lords, I shall listen carefully to what the Minister says, but I have to say on behalf of racing, for which I believe I speak, that we will need clear assurances before we are satisfied that the Bill, unamended, is a satisfactory foundation for the transfer of the Tote to the Racing Trust.

Lord Donoughue: My Lords, I do not have an institutional interest to declare, but I declare a strong interest in racing. I broadly sympathise with the points that were made by the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland. He raised an interesting point about the proposal to share 5 per cent of the sale price of the Tote among its staff. I do not know what the position on that is, but if it represents £10 million, £20 million or £30 million of public money, we need clarification.

I have broadly supported the approach that is set out in Amendment No. 1 from the beginning, although I understand the problems that the Government, the Minister and the Treasury have in giving that kind of commitment. Like my noble friend Lord Lipsey, I shall listen carefully to the Minister's reply and I hope that I do not have to vote against him.

I have stated that I have always been in favour of the Racing Trust in principle, but my main position is the interests of racing. When compared to that, whether ownership of the Tote passes to the Racing Trust or to another body is a minor point. I am concerned only with what is in the best interests of racing. I know that my noble friend Lord Lipsey has done everything that he can, but without the figures it is very difficult for us, even at this late stage of the Bill, to form a view.

The noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, mentioned a figure from the City. City people have floated much higher figures than that to me. If the figure was £500 million from private sources, that is a serious amount. As a former stockbroker, I know that the only figure that matters is the one that people in the end will pay and we do not yet know that. The price is a serious issue. I was very impressed when my noble friend Lord Lipsey said that he is quite convinced that the route through the Racing Trust, as is being negotiated, will be in the best financial interests of racing. If that is the case, I shall be very happy.

It would be embarrassing and unhelpful if some venture capital trust or "fat cat", as my noble friend put it, were to emerge and take over the Tote, but from racing's point of view, money is money and it is desirable. If there is a large amount of it, I would rather have it from a "fat cat" than receive much less from noble and distinguished sources.

I am therefore unclear as to what is the best bet for racing, but it does not seem to be a clear choice between taking the private course—and abandoning the commitment to use the trust—and using the trust. One could do a back-to-back deal. Were it the case that venture capitalists were prepared to give much more than can be raised from the other source, we could meet the Labour Party's manifesto commitment—we
 
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have not always done that and quite rightly, too—by passing the Tote to the Racing Trust for it to sell for a very high price to a private venture capital firm. In that way the money would come back into the trust, with the trust remaining in existence and receiving half of what might be £200 million, as well as receiving rent. There are ways in which that could be done. I am not advocating that approach. I am simply making the point that from racing's point of view what matters is what will give the most money to racing. We wait to see that outcome.

As I said, I hope I shall not have to vote on the amendment, and I hope the noble Lord will not press it, having listened to the Minister's reply. My position is very close to that of the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, on that.

Lord Smith of Leigh: My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, said in his introduction to this clause, there has been Cross-Bench support at all stages of the Bill for the position he has taken. I am one of those Peers who have taken part in the debate, but maybe my interest is somewhat different from that of other noble Lords. I want the Tote to continue as an independent organisation. I want that not simply because of the invaluable support it has given for the sponsorship of racing, but because the Tote has been a successful, innovative organisation in its own right. It has been well supported by its loyal staff who have worked for it for many years—and perhaps they deserve some reward for that. Most importantly, it is trusted by the betting public. The Tote is a real alternative to both the traditional bookmakers and the new Internet booking organisations. As such, we need it to continue.

Throughout the debates at the various stages of the Bill, we have been very much informed by my noble friend Lord Lipsey, partly because of his particular knowledge of the Bill, but also because of his general knowledge of racing. I am not sure I would agree with him that racing is a country sport; I suspect he might concede that more people from urban areas watch racing than from other areas. Nevertheless, I found his argument compelling. If we support the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and get into the traditional ping-pong between this House and another place, we will not be helping either the Racing Trust or the Tote. The time delay would result in such uncertainty that the objectives we all want to see might not be fulfilled.

I hope that when my noble friend the Minister sums up the debate, he will provide the House with sufficient assurances to make the amendment unnecessary.

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