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Baroness Noakes: My Lords, the Minister's remarks have been extremely helpful. However, before he sits down, can he clarify a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Donoughue, which has confused me a little? If the Bill goes ahead and if a sale is made to a body other than the Racing Trust, is there anything to provide that the proceeds will go to racing interests, or would that be the end of it?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I made it clear on Report and it is on the record that if, in the undesirable and unlooked-for event that we sold other than to a racing trust, 50 per cent of the proceeds would go to racing.

Lord Moynihan: My Lords, I am grateful as always to the Minister for his considered response to this debate. It is the case that if everything both the Minister and his colleagues in another place have said were to be accepted as gospel, they would have absolutely no difficulty in accepting our amendment. I say that because the amendment as it stands does not require the Government to come back to this House
 
14 Sept 2004 : Column 1045
 
with details of the sale to the Racing Trust, rather it looks exclusively at the position which could possibly arise if the central plank of the whole of the Government's position was to crumble; namely, a failure to sell to the Racing Trust. That is what this amendment focuses on.

I am quite certain that all the negotiations have been undertaken in good faith and that what the Minister has set out for noble Lords is exactly the position the Government would like to see, but when we look at the legislation before the House the fact is that, as it stands, there is a chance that it would not be possible for the Government to sell to a racing trust.

Perhaps I may give one example. Before Easter, my noble friend Lord Wakeham asked in Grand Committee a question about Europe and the extent to which negotiations with the Commission had led to a conclusion over the question of whether an adverse state aid ruling from Brussels could scupper the deal to a racing trust. It was pointed out at that stage of our proceedings that a letter had been in place confirming that there would be no problem with this deal, but that it had time-expired and the Government intended to renegotiate the matter with the European Union. However, the Minister has told us today that those negotiations are not complete. He stated that discussions will take place next week. What if those discussions go wrong, leading to a position where a sale to the Racing Trust could not move forward?

The whole point of this debate can best be summarised by what the Minister said at an early stage of our proceedings; namely, that even if no one owns the Tote, Parliament is its guardian. Today we have an important responsibility to racing in general and to the Tote in particular. The amendment before your Lordships will ensure that we fulfil our role as guardian of the Tote. A sale to the Racing Trust may collapse for whatever reason and that was anticipated today from all sides of the House as a possibility. Some circumstances are incapable of anticipation as to what might happen as a result of negotiations.

Last week the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, was down in the dumps and unhappy about the way negotiations were proceeding. This week it looks much better. For whatever reason, we are guardians of the Tote. Parliament and all Members of this House who have spoken during our proceedings support the Government's manifesto commitment to sell the Tote to the Racing Trust. But as the Tote's guardian, surely it is right and proper that Parliament has the final decision on the sale of the Tote in the event that a sale to the Racing Trust is not possible, not in the event that there is a successful conclusion to the current negotiations, but exclusively in the event that a sale to the Racing Trust is not possible. Anything less would be a dereliction of our duty. I should like to test the opinion of the House on this matter.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?
 
14 Sept 2004 : Column 1046
 

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 106; Not-Contents, 181.

Division No. 1

CONTENTS
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carrington, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elles, B.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Feldman, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laidlaw, L.
Laird, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L. [Teller]
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Prior, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stewartby, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tebbit, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trumpington, B.
Ullswater, V.
Vinson, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Warnock, B.
Wilcox, B. [Teller]
Windlesham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President of the Council)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Billingham, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Broers, L.
Burlison, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Dykes, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fearn, L.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fitt, L.
Gale, B.
Garden, L.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Brookwood, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greaves, L.
Grenfell, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hamwee, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Joffe, L.
Jones, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leitch, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Listowel, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Palmer, L.
Parekh, L.
Patel, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Razzall, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rogan, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sewel, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Slim, V.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Snape, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thornton, B.
Tordoff, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.


Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

 
14 Sept 2004 : Column 1048
 

Clause 21 [Licensing of Olympic Lotteries]:

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